De-icing an iced-up Mooney

[carusoam]

38 minutes ago, philip_g said:

No, it means a Lear sat on the ramp at Philly NE through several snow, rain, freeze, thaw, refreeze cycles and had to make a medevac run and had no chance to thaw out in a hangar. But thanks for telling me what I experienced without having been there.

Don’t feel abused… its only a casual conversation… clearly he wasn’t there.  He couldn’t have been… and he knows that too.

the result of it…. You have typed all the details that you filled in for him…

If he asked you to type all the details… you would have to think of a reason not to… without looking mean…  

Forum sociology 102…

now… everybody is happy!

 

 

the local flight school used a spray bottle and windshield wiper fluid to de-ice…. It is not very strong or effective, but works…

Use caution with what you put on your paint, some liquids stain…. Alcohol isn’t very good for some things including acrylic windows…

this topic has been covered before… search and you will probably find the RV water tank antifreeze…

Don’t expect that a hair drier is ever going to work… it uses so much outside air, it will cool the heater element before warning the air…

Use extra caution using a heat gun… the industrial equivalent of the hair drier…. If not careful, it will remove the paint too…

Point the most affected sides towards the sun when de-icing…

Ziplock Bags of hot water can be used as spot de-icers…. One for each fuel cap… not really affective either…

 

+1 for industrial heater blowing warm air over the surfaces… lots of warm air… circulating in a closed hangar…

+1 for avoiding ice in the spinner… it has to come out before start…

+1 for asking the local flight school how they handle their de-ice…  they must have to go through this exercise a lot…

 

Bad fuzzy memories from a decade of outdoor tie downs…

-a-

[Guest]

13 hours ago, exM20K said:

I'm with @N201MKTurbo: Find a torpedo heater and blast it in the unheated hangar.  Shouldn't talk long.

Like @philip_g, I used to keep a garden sprayer handy when commuting to KBED for defrosting.  I do not think it will work very well on attached ice, however.

-dan

It’s going to take quite a heater to warm the hangars at Buttonville, they’re 5-600 feet long and 150 wide.  
 

Clarence

 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Here’s one for the cold weather experts to weigh in on. I’ve had our Mooney in Toronto for two weeks visiting family. Returning to US next Tuesday. It’s been on the ramp (only option available). On the warmer days, I’ve gone and brushed the snow and moisture off. But today it has a good layer of ice on the wings and tail. 
The local airport does not have heated hangar space. They do have cold / unheated hangars. 
The forecast for the next 5 days is below freezing most days and nights. Forecast (in Celsius) pasted below.
Obviously I want an ice free Mooney on Tuesday morning. 
Would putting it in an unheated hangar for two nights, even when outside temps are below zero, be enough to cause any existing ice to melt off? (Probably not?)
What would you all do?

(PS I’m not as concerned about the engine being cold - I’ve got an engine heater/Reiff XP and will be giving it 12+ hours heat to the cylinders and oil before we go. They’ll be nice and toasty. The concern is the ice on airframe.)

Too bad you aren’t parked in Kitchener (CYKF) the friendly MSC would put in a a nice warm hangar for you.  You might also consider using some isopropyl alcohol for de icing.

Clarence 

[BDPetersen]

Yes, as in my DC-3 days, a big garden sprayer with a bit of de icer (glycol?) filled with the hottest water we could find. Hot water melted the ice, de icer kept from refreezing. Gives me chills to recall skating around on the wings.

[N201MKTurbo]

23 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Nooo... Not Auto Antifreeze (as in the FAA reference)....   Just the windshield cleaner, or the stuff @BravoWhiskey posted the picture of.  I use that in our cabin every year and available at any auto shop.  If you don't see it when you walk in the door, ask them for "Mobile Home" or "RV" antifreeze (vs. straight auto radiator antifreeze).

One other thought if  you do still have ice and need to spray.  If you can, get whatever you use really warm.  I know that may not be real easy, but maybe keep it in the car right in front of the heater and only put smaller amounts in the spray bottle to do smaller sections. 

ADDED: And the point of wiping the wing off falls in with the FAA document.  The sprays we're talking about have not been tested at altitude and at the temps you may encounter.  Dry or not.  So you don't want the stuff locking up any moving parts.  Also why you need to confirm everything moves and is dry while you're in the hangar.   Once you're out, it's like any other day on the ramp with all it's winter pitfalls.

So, if you read the FAA document, the reason they don’t want you to use antifreeze is because it hasn’t been certified for aircraft deicing. They were concerned that it wouldn’t cling to the airframe and provide continued protection as you taxi for departure. 
 

None of the suggested consumer products meet the FAA criteria. Antifreeze contains the same ingredients as the approved fluids. It is hard to imagine how they would cause any problems that the approved fluids wouldn’t. After all, all we are trying to do is remove the ice, not provide continued protection. Any antifreeze solution left over will have less tendency to refreeze than pure water from melted ice.

[N201MKTurbo]

I’ve paid to have my plane deiced a few times back in the 80s. Mostly to get rid of the ice I landed with. It makes buying avgas seem cheap! The fluid costs more than avgas and comes out of a fire hose.

[A64Pilot]

often you can rent torpedo or radiant propane heaters at an equipment rental place, maybe you can’t heat the whole hanger, but blowing 100+F air on an airplane over time will melt ice.

Me, I don’t do ice, got caught in an ice storm in Tx of all places, put the 210 in a hanger, rented a car and came back to it in a couple of days.

Once on a delivery I stayed I believe in Snow Mass overnight with all the biz jets, Snowed pretty heavy that night, but just snow as it was below freezing before the snowing started.

Got to the FBO to pay the ridiculous overnight tie down fee, and the little girl behind the counter said I had to be de-iced. I told her i I didn’t have to be de-iced, but out of curiosity what would it cost.

She said it was a couple of hundred to move the truck, then I think close to 100 for each gl of fluid used, I’d need at least ten gls or something. (Truck was parked beside my aircraft)

So I said no thank you and she again said I HAD to be de-iced, that was their policy, I would have to talk to the airport manager.
I ignored her and left, as I was lightweight and the snow brushed off clean I wasn’t too worried, All of the snow was gone before rotation,but there was some time where I was completely blind from it. I bet it looked pretty from outside.

‘My one snow/ice story, most of my stories are Tropical Storms etc, I don’t do cold.

Edited December 31, 2021 by A64Pilot

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Antifreeze contains the same ingredients as the approved fluids.

Very true.  And I guess there is no reason not to use Antifreeze, old habit just thinking it's more toxic.  The RV type and the windshield cleaner will do the trick in most cases and you don't need to be concerned as much about wiping down the plane and getting it all over your hands, cloths, etc.

 

[A64Pilot]

Most of the common Glycol anti-freeze is VERY toxic, and will kill the airport dog and any other animals that drink it, they die from kidney failure which is not a comfortable death. It tastes sweet so they will happily lap up a lethal amount.

There are non toxic auto antifreezes, and of course the RV anti-freeze is safe. I believe it’s mostly the type of alcohol, but car anti-freeze may have anti corrosive chemicals etc.

So please, buy the non toxic stuff, it works just as well.

It’s Ethylene Glycol that’s toxic, Propylene Glycol isn’t.

https://spca.bc.ca/faqs/antifreeze/

Edited December 31, 2021 by A64Pilot

[JamesMooney]

23 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Most of the common Glycol anti-freeze is VERY toxic, and will kill the airport dog and any other animals that drink it, they die from kidney failure which is not a comfortable death. It tastes sweet so they will happily lap up a lethal amount.

There are non toxic auto antifreezes, and of course the RV anti-freeze is safe. I believe it’s mostly the type of alcohol, but car anti-freeze may have anti corrosive chemicals etc.

So please, buy the non toxic stuff, it works just as well.

It’s Ethylene Glycol that’s toxic, Propylene Glycol isn’t.

https://spca.bc.ca/faqs/antifreeze/

Our aviator puppy Quincy thanks everyone for their concern about keeping flying safe for our furry co-pilots!

 

[GeeBee]

15 hours ago, philip_g said:

No, it means a Lear sat on the ramp at Philly NE through several snow, rain, freeze, thaw, refreeze cycles and had to make a medevac run and had no chance to thaw out in a hangar. But thanks for telling me what I experienced without having been there.

We have de-iced wide bodies sitting a long time for 7K.

 

[Hank]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t do cold.

A mam after my own heart! I used to.say that when I left WV, I didn't want to see another snowflake, but we had 3" back in Jan 17 or 18--our plant closed for 3 days! Haven't seen a flake since.

[glenn reynolds]

Years ago I got ramp frozen in Canada the FBO gave me a gallon of lavatory antifreeze. It seems the FBO inventory protocol was very lax about the LAV cart!  Anyway I used that to wipe off all the ice. Worked like a charm and the jokes lasted even longer. Now I carry a garden sprayer and a gallon of tks fluid. 

[Shadrach]

On 12/30/2021 at 4:30 PM, jaylw314 said:

AFAIK hair dryers aren't designed for continuous duty, there may be some meltage/burny involved if you leave it on too long.  Also outdoor water + indoor appliance may not be a great idea

I think most heat guns are rated for continuous duty, and provide similar power, 1650 watts for continuous duty.  They may not be waterproof but probably a little safer too  

Who said anything about continuous duty.  How much time do you think it would take to raise the interior temperature within the wing to well above freezing? Further more ALL hairdryers sold in the US are made to UL and NFPA codes. All have a built in GFCI plugs.

A slight digression,  I have been using a hair dryer as a  preheater for well over a decade. I do not leave mine on “all the time”.  I have a dryer that circulates hot air in the right cowl flap and pulls air out of the left cowl flap (using SCAT tube on output and intake sides of the dryer. This circulates warm air through the cowl. I installed a thermostat switch behind the GFCI  that cuts power as soon as the cowl reaches ~ 55°F. The thermostat is inserted into the lower cowl on the opposite side of the warm air input.. When the cowl is insulated it initially takes about 10 minutes to reach temp. After that it cycles on and off for short intervals to maintain temp +/- 5°.  I’m not advocating my method for anyone else. I do it because I think it’s the healthiest and most even way to raise and maintain the engine’s temp the night before a flight. I am not a fan of radiant systems that heat one part of the engine. Seems like a recipe for condensation to me. It probably doesn’t matter but I’m 1400hrs into my second overhaul with the same 54 year old cam. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Shadrach

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Who said anything about continuous duty.  How much time do you think it would take to raise the interior temperature within the wing to well above freezing? Further more ALL hairdryers sold in the US are made to UL and NFPA codes. All have a built in GFCI plugs.

A slight digression,  I have been using a hair dryer as a  preheater for well over a decade. I do not leave mine on “all the time”.  I have a dryer that circulates hot air in the right cowl flap and pulls air out of the left cowl flap (using SCAT tube on output and intake sides of the dryer. This circulates warm air through the cowl. I installed a thermostat switch behind the GFCI  that cuts power as soon as the cowl reaches ~ 55°F. The thermostat is inserted into the lower cowl on the opposite side of the warm air input.. When the cowl is insulated it initially takes about 10 minutes to reach temp. After that it cycles on and off for short intervals to maintain temp +/- 5°.  I’m not advocating my method for anyone else. I do it because I think it’s the healthiest and most even way to raise and maintain the engine’s temp the night before a flight. I am not a fan of radiant systems that heat one part of the engine. Seems like a recipe for condensation to me. It probably doesn’t matter but I’m 1400hrs into my second overhaul with the same 54 year old cam. 

I had thought it might take a LONG time for our fellow Mooniacs up in the Canadian tundra!   

[Shadrach]

17 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I had thought it might take a LONG time for our fellow Mooniacs up in the Canadian tundra!   

At the stated temps around 0°C?  I’m guessing the bulk of the ice would release from the wing within 15 mins. Could be wrong though. 1875W is a fair amount of energy. Also, we’re not trying to melt all the ice, we just need enough warming of the wing skin to get the ice to release from the paint and slide away.  I included the paragraph about preheat because it is anecdotally relevant to how long it takes for an 1875W heater to bring my cowling to 55° when the ambient temp is in a similar range to the OPs current base of operations.  My preheater cycles on and off pretty frequently at first because (unlike the inside of a wing) there’s a huge aluminum and steel heat sink in the cowling. Heat cycles on and off frequently until everything equalizes.