Engine overhaul

[Browncbr1]

Well, after fighting leaks and a few oil changes with quite small amounts of metal in the filter, I decided to go ahead and overhaul. My thinking is time opportunity of doing it now heading into the winter months when we typically don’t travel much.  I also see inflation happening and figure id rather do it now at an expected lower cost than later.  Lycoming had several price increases this year already.   Lastly, I wanted to do it on my own terms, rather than end up possibly being down in the summer or further risking damage to the crank.   It’s debatable, but with ever increasing values of Mooney’s, I figure this is a good investment, given the project estimate. 
 

I had long thought I would send my engine to Jewell, but after talking with them and others, I felt that a run in and a warranty is pretty important to me.  By word of mouth, I found Bill Wagner, former PGA golfer who left the tour and started SkyBoss Aviation.  His background before golf was aerospace and he had been building race engines for Reno.  I like that he’s a one man shop compared to the big engine shops that you’re not even sure who is working on it.  At any rate, he offers a good insured 2 year/280hr warranty with a 1 hour run in, at a price comparable to jewell.  He also seems to be a good guy that I wouldn’t doubt him taking care of me down the road.

the other benefit is he is in Tulsa, so the case, crank, and anything else needed is hand carried rather than shipped.   This reduces shipping risk and delay in my mind.   Project assumes new superior cam and DCL lifters, pistons and all from SB240W.

so, yesterday, I spent 8 hours pulling the engine.  I hate adell clamps now.
 

$sweat engine removal

$7500 overhaul deposit

$290 insured FedEx freight

current total $7790

 

Planning to do all new custom stratoflex hoses, overhaul oil cooler, new motor mounts.    I may rework baffling or get new, not sure yet.  I’ll be posting all progress here in the coming months.  
 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Browncbr1

[Greg Ellis]

Thanks for posting.  I look forward to following your progress and of course PIREPS on the engine shop.

[Ragsf15e]

Ill be following as well.  What was the timeline he gave you?

I assume DLC coated lifters?

Did you consider ordering a factory reman and continuing to fly until it showed up?  Roller lifters, etc?  Was it just a cost issue?

Ill definitely enjoy hearing how it goes and what it actually costs!  Thanks.

[carusoam]

Sounds exciting!

The logic is fantastic.

Good luck with the build…

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

9 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Ill be following as well.  What was the timeline he gave you?

I assume DLC coated lifters?

Did you consider ordering a factory reman and continuing to fly until it showed up?  Roller lifters, etc?  Was it just a cost issue?

Ill definitely enjoy hearing how it goes and what it actually costs!  Thanks.

The factory reman cost is out of the question.  I also believe that they are no better than a field built engine.  I know of several factory engines that failed big time after just a few hours.     
 

DCL lifters are going in.  I’m also going to ensure always using high load carrying oil from now on.  I’ve heard that Lycoming says that roller tappets wouldn’t have been developed if DCL technology had been available.  So, no case change needed.  If case is cracked beyond repair, thus needing to buy a new case, I will revisit this decision.  
 

I was given a timeline of 12-15 weeks door to door.  Most of that is the 8-10 week lead from CSI.  This time of year, I’m fine with that. 
 

 

[Browncbr1]

I’m going to use the down time to send in my exhaust for repair.  On the tail pipe side of the muffler, I’ve had a crack that has been welded several times and just looks cobbly.  There are also a few dents in one of the risers.   All the metal seems structurally ok, so I’m planning on sending it all in and they can evaluate.  I‘ll probably get a call saying that they want to overhaul the whole system.   planning to send to AWI.  

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

The factory reman cost is out of the question.  I also believe that they are no better than a field built engine.  I know of several factory engines that failed big time after just a few hours.     
 

DCL lifters are going in.  I’m also going to ensure always using high load carrying oil from now on.  I’ve heard that Lycoming says that roller tappets wouldn’t have been developed if DCL technology had been available.  So, no case change needed.  If case is cracked beyond repair, thus needing to buy a new case, I will revisit this decision.  
 

I was given a timeline of 12-15 weeks door to door.  Most of that is the 8-10 week lead from CSI.  This time of year, I’m fine with that. 
 

 

How many other accessories are you doing at the same time? Governor?  Fuel servo? Mags?  Electric fuel pump?  Mech fuel pump (or is that included?)?

Sounded like you’re doing new hoses.  How about the engine mount?  Good time to send in (or do yourself) for inspection, sanding, painting?

Ive tried to think through how I would handle my OH when it comes.  I think it’s kind of like avionics… do it all at once so you don’t have to go back in.  But the price goes up.

[Bob E]

The "other accessories" comment is spot on.  The governor (like the gascolator) is easy to forget about, but it's crucial.  OH time is a great time to check both. 

Mags = ditto.

Engine mount = AD and double ditto.  Absolutely crucial.

That OH price is pretty amazing so it's a good reason to make sure all those other little things are taken care of.  A great time to think about an engine monitor as well.

[Browncbr1]

18 minutes ago, Bob E said:

The "other accessories" comment is spot on.  The governor (like the gascolator) is easy to forget about, but it's crucial.  OH time is a great time to check both. 

Mags = ditto.

Engine mount = AD and double ditto.  Absolutely crucial.

That OH price is pretty amazing so it's a good reason to make sure all those other little things are taken care of.  A great time to think about an engine monitor as well.

All good points for clarification. 

I have a very low time surefly, so that stays.  My other mag just came out of 500hr, so I’m sticking with it.    I’ll replace brushes and inspect bearings on my alternator that has about 500hrs on it.  It will get a new mechanical fuel pump.  I bought all the seals for rebuilding the gascolator/selector ($30).  The electric boost pump has about 500hrs on it, so I’m not planning to touch it.  The prop governor will get IRANed.  I only had about 600hrs on the fuel servo, so originally I hadn’t planned on sending that in to avstar, but the past couple of days I’m think about going ahead and sending it anyway, which will add another $1500.  (AMU nomenclature is reserved for avionics only!). Honestly, I was kind of waiting to hear back that my case and crank and all are ok before spending much.
 

the engine mount had the reinforcement done to the lower right side before I owned it.  I plan on removing and inspecting and paint.  I will buy new motor mounts soon and maybe new bolts and nuts as well.  
 

I already have a jpi830 and panel how I like it, but I will use the down time to reconfigure the copilot side panel to clean it up and organize the layout a little.  I’ll also finally get around to leather wrapping the pilot yoke to match the copilot one I did last winter. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Browncbr1

[MB65E]

What is “high load carrying” oil?
-Matt 

[N201MKTurbo]

On 11/2/2021 at 5:42 AM, Browncbr1 said:

 I hate adell clamps now.

You were just taking them off, wait till you have to put them back on!

 

My method of putting on Adel clamps:

Put the clamp on whatever it is clamping, Clamp the two tabs together with a pair of vice grips, twist on some 0.020 lock wire tightly at the base of the tabs. Now bolt the clamp to whatever you are bolting it to. you can cut the lock wire off, but I usually just leave it.

Edited November 3, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[N201MKTurbo]

7 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

The factory reman cost is out of the question.  I also believe that they are no better than a field built engine.  I know of several factory engines that failed big time after just a few hours.     
 

DCL lifters are going in.  I’m also going to ensure always using high load carrying oil from now on.  I’ve heard that Lycoming says that roller tappets wouldn’t have been developed if DCL technology had been available.  So, no case change needed.  If case is cracked beyond repair, thus needing to buy a new case, I will revisit this decision.  
 

I was given a timeline of 12-15 weeks door to door.  Most of that is the 8-10 week lead from CSI.  This time of year, I’m fine with that. 
 

 

When I was rebuilding my engine, I spent 5% of my time working on the engine and 95% of my time waiting for the Brown truck to show up.

[Browncbr1]

36 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You were just taking them off, wait till you have to put them back on!

 

My method of putting on Adel clamps:

Put the clamp on whatever it is clamping, Clamp the two tabs together with a pair of vice grips, twist on some 0.020 lock wire tightly at the base of the tabs. Now bolt the clamp to whatever you are bolting it to. you can cut the lock wire off, but I usually just leave it.

that's a good idea... I had used tinnermans to hold them together in the past... 

in any case, I will have help with putting all back together.  I'm going to need it..   Which reminds me...   do you have to bolt the engine mount to the engine first, and then bolt the whole thing to the firewall?   I removed the engine directly from the mount, which was actually pretty difficult to pull off the lower two mounts.  In any case, I am going to have to remove the mount from the firewall in order to remove the lower bolts and rubber pucks.. 

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, MB65E said:

What is “high load carrying” oil?
-Matt 

i'm not sure how to correctly define this, but it is a physical property design of the oil to maintain surface tension under a very heavy load, like cam lobes on flat tappets.  if surface tension breaks, then metal touches metal.    this was one of the reasons I used exxon elite for years and never had a speck in the filter.. when they quit making it and I switched to phillips, i started to see problems for the first time.    I will be going with aeroshell plus on the new engine.

[N201MKTurbo]

25 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

that's a good idea... I had used tinnermans to hold them together in the past... 

in any case, I will have help with putting all back together.  I'm going to need it..   Which reminds me...   do you have to bolt the engine mount to the engine first, and then bolt the whole thing to the firewall?   I removed the engine directly from the mount, which was actually pretty difficult to pull off the lower two mounts.  In any case, I am going to have to remove the mount from the firewall in order to remove the lower bolts and rubber pucks.. 

It is much easier to put the mount on the engine and then bolt the whole thing to the firewall. I put the bottom forks on the blocks and leave the bolts loose so the engine will pivot then use the hoist to bring the top mounts to the firewall. I will drive bullets (the old bolts with a point ground on the thread end) towards the firewall and then drive them out with the new bolts from inside. The mount will probably spring when the bolt gets to the firewall. It helps to have a burly friend helping to spring the mount back in place.

[Immelman]

If you hate Adel clamps now just wait until you hang the engine and want to get it back in the air again.

Here is my Adel solution: Goto harbor freight and get a few pairs of assorted hemostats. Use a couple as you assemble the stack. Not my idea I saw it on some homebuilder's youtube. Bonus points, you will feel somewhat like a surgeon. Until one flies open and you're searching for the washer and nut.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Immelman

[Janat83]

I like your logic about when to do the overhaul, good luck and thanks for sharing such great information here.

 

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You were just taking them off, wait till you have to put them back on!

 

My method of putting on Adel clamps:

Put the clamp on whatever it is clamping, Clamp the two tabs together with a pair of vice grips, twist on some 0.020 lock wire tightly at the base of the tabs. Now bolt the clamp to whatever you are bolting it to. you can cut the lock wire off, but I usually just leave it.

After grumbling to my AP/IA one time about adel clamps he gave me this same advice. It ranks up near the top of the list of helpful tricks when working on your plane.

[A64Pilot]

Ref Amel clamps. If you have to replace any due to the rubber deteriorating, use the ones with teflon instead of rubber, near as I can tell the teflon lasts a very long time and oil doesn’t make it swell up and go soft like rubber does.

[Browncbr1]

I'm about to order some parts and came to the option to decide between Lord or Barry engine mounts.    Which is better?  $790 vs $535, but i just want the best long lasting one.. 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Browncbr1

[N201MKTurbo]

49 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

I'm about to order some parts and came to the option to decide between Lord or Barry engine mounts.    Which is better?  $790 vs $535, but i just want the best long lasting one.. 

 

I've used both. Couldn't tell any difference. Maybe Barry lasts 15 years six months and Lord lasts 16 years. Or is it the other way around? Being a CB I usually buy Barry.

FWIW.

I was working on the computers at a mining supply company back in the 80s and saw a set of engine mounts that looked exactly like the ones for my F. They were from Lord. I asked what they were for and he said they were for a stationary diesel engine. I asked how much they were? He said $25.... 

Edited November 5, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[Browncbr1]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Ref Amel clamps. If you have to replace any due to the rubber deteriorating, use the ones with teflon instead of rubber, near as I can tell the teflon lasts a very long time and oil doesn’t make it swell up and go soft like rubber does.

You mean the blue flouro-silicone ones?

Edited November 5, 2021 by Browncbr1

[Guest]

In some cases this tool helps with Adel clamps, but in most cases they can be done with your fingers without scratching the clamps.

Clarence

[Buckeyechuck]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:40 PM, Browncbr1 said:

i'm not sure how to correctly define this, but it is a physical property design of the oil to maintain surface tension under a very heavy load, like cam lobes on flat tappets.  if surface tension breaks, then metal touches metal.    this was one of the reasons I used exxon elite for years and never had a speck in the filter.. when they quit making it and I switched to phillips, i started to see problems for the first time.    I will be going with aeroshell plus on the new engine.

When choosing what oil to use in your Mooney, check out what Mike Busch has to say. I’m following his recommendation (and my engine overhaul shop) by using Aeroshell straight weight and Camguard. 

[A64Pilot]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:53 PM, Browncbr1 said:

You mean the blue flouro-silicone ones?

Ones I have used were white, not saying buy your aircraft parts from Ebay, but that was the first Google hit, and has a picture

https://www.ebay.com/itm/291640018878

I want to think without looking thst it’s the K in the part number that indicates teflon, but I may be mistaken, it seems that teflon clamps like teflon hoses last a very long time

Edited November 8, 2021 by A64Pilot