redbaron1982 Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Hi all, I'm still in my search for a J or K Mooney and I came across a J (published here in mooneyspace) that had a prop strike and the engine was not teardown for inspection. The good thing is that the owner brought the issue himself. So good and honest. The thing is that the aircraft supposedly had a very light prop strike on landing due to porposing and very lightly just one blade scratched the concrete. They replaced the prop but didn't not teardown the engine for inspection. Allegedly after evaluating with several A&P. What are your thoughts? Mine are that a prop strike on landing due to porposing is never small and the engine should have been teardown for inspection. Also in the logbook there is only an entry due to the prop replacement but there says nothing about the prop strike. Quote
JWJR Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB533C%20Recommended%20Action%20for%20sudden%20Engine%20Stoppage%2C%20Propeller_Rotor%20Strike%20or%20Loss%20of%20Propeller_Rotor%20Blade%20or%20Ti%20%281%29.pdfSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
philip_g Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 I saw that listing and wondered the same thing. Quote
JWJR Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 I would ask was the plane insured. Typically insurance will pay for engine removal/install and the prop replacement and engine tear down/ inspection .Did he share photos of prop strike?Did the owner get a payout check and not follow through with the engine inspection?All the old timers always told me how in the good old days they would replace the prop -dial the crank and fly on after a prop strike.Well procedures change over time for a REASON. Inflation has changed things and different shops charge differently. I would think the removal and IRAN would be around 4-6 amu so if you like the plane factor/negotiate that in. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
philip_g Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 25 minutes ago, JWJR said: I would ask was the plane insured. Typically insurance will pay for engine removal/install and the prop replacement and engine tear down/ inspection . Did he share photos of prop strike? Did the owner get a payout check and not follow through with the engine inspection? All the old timers always told me how in the good old days they would replace the prop -dial the crank and fly on after a prop strike.Well procedures change over time for a REASON. Inflation has changed things and different shops charge differently. I would think the removal and IRAN would be around 4-6 amu so if you like the plane factor/negotiate that in. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk He said his mechanic bounced it on a test flight so presumably their policy covered it Quote
V1VRV2 Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Not a chance would I be the guinea pig for this experiment! Quote
carusoam Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 RB, Prop strikes have become better defined over the years… Each engine manufacturer has a set definition and what should be done next… Looks like JW copied the Lycoming version above… The old school method used to check the run-out at the prop flange to see if anything bent the shaft… That worked probably 90% of the time… Unfortunately, it didn’t cover the other 10% of the problems that happen after a prop strike… If you are familiar with metals… and crack propagation… you would want to inspect things inside the engine… to make sure the ground strike didn’t leave any hairline cracks… Actual ground strikes have included running into tall grass… So whacking the runway with a prop tip is better for somebody else to have as a problem… For a real professional opinion on prop strikes… and wether this prop’s scratches are meaningful… 1) You could post pics… and invite MS’s prop guy to look…. 2) Find our prop guy and contact him offline if you don’t want to share publicly… 3) Either way… I think you want to become familiar with @Cody Stallings before taking on this responsibility… 4) the prop can possibly be dressed properly… 5) The engine inspection is probably many amus…. 6) If it is defined as prop strike… I would not fly it without going through the proper effort to inspect… 7) There are ferry procedures if needed… and the risk of losing the prop inflight has become a reality for an MSer before… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote
shawnd Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 @redbaron1982 As others have said, insurance covers teardown inspect + mag overhaul for prop strikes. Anyone that doesn't follow through should raise concerns. More importantly, the fact that the owner is now trying to sell the plane is interesting as well. No matter how "light" the strike was, with older airplanes and engines, that small amount of unwanted force may have caused damage internally that is not visible, and perhaps worst, wouldn't show now till later when you are in the air. Unless the owner is discounting the purchase price by a significant amount to help offset the cost of inspection and perhaps an agreement for non-wear pieces, there is no real value to going with this aircraft. You do not want to take any chances with the one component that keeps you up in the air. Quote
carusoam Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Is this the same plane? It will help separate the two if they are different… -a- Quote
philip_g Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) It's only flown about 5 hours since the strike, too. Seller is asking 130k I think it was. Not much of a discount for the risk Edited November 1, 2021 by philip_g Quote
carusoam Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 For insurance questions…. We have a guy for that…. Find @Parker_Woodruff Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
redbaron1982 Posted November 1, 2021 Author Report Posted November 1, 2021 Thanks a lot for your inputs guys. Regarding pics, I did ask if there were any for this event, because that could shed some light on this. The answer was that there is no pictures of the event. I didn't know that insurance would cover this. Doesn't make sense to not do the inspection if it would be covered by your insurance. Quote
alextstone Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Thanks a lot for your inputs guys. Regarding pics, I did ask if there were any for this event, because that could shed some light on this. The answer was that there is no pictures of the event. I didn't know that insurance would cover this. Doesn't make sense to not do the inspection if it would be covered by your insurance. No photos, no sale unless the seller pays for IRAN before the purchase. Too many unknowns here.Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk Quote
David Lloyd Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 There is a AD for Lycoming engines requiring certain things to be inspected or replaced after a prop strike. It is required to be airworthy. It does not call for a complete engine teardown. There is a Lycoming Service Bulletin in place of a prop strike where the engine must be disassembled and the rotating parts inspected and some things replaced or in the case of magnetos, overhauled. This is Service Bulletin, it is not required. If you are not comfortable buying an airplane with a prop strike history, having the AD complied with but not the SB, do not buy that airplane. Find one without that history. 2 Quote
JWJR Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 https://www.avweb.com/ownership/the-prop-strike-sudden-stop/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
PeteMc Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 As some others have said, for any kind of prop strike, I don't believe the plane is airworthy without the inspection. I know someone that sucked up a rock and did a pretty good ding in the prop, but no actually contact of the prop to the ground. The engine had to be torn down for inspection for that, so I sure don't see why this one with actual ground contact can get away with no inspection. The A&P may very well know from the type of strike that there would PROBABLY be no damage discovered. But I don't think it's his call. More likely he knew the insurance company would come after him or his insurance to pay for the tear down. And on the purchase... If you like the plane and feel the price is fair if there had not been a prop strike. See if you can get the owner to do the inspection since the insurance company would be paying for it. Don't see why the owner would care since they're not out any money, esp. if they're not renewing the insurance and don't have to worry about a bump at their renewal. And if you do go this path, then I'd be sure to instruct the shop to replace ANYTHING they see that's not 100% (okay 95%) at your cost. Even if this work is not considered an "overhaul" of the engine, you know starting out with the plane that your time on the engine is basically SMO. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Doh. That doesn’t sound like a good situation to buy into unless the engine is counted as close to zero value. It needs a prop strike inspection. Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Second time I've heard about this plane and no one has gotten to the bottom of if the owner has insurance on it or non-owned coverage in some form... If it's a covered loss, insurance will pay for the teardown and any corresponding damage. Quote
EricJ Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 If the strike was bad enough to require the prop to be changed, it is way past bad enough to require the inspection. This is spelled out pretty clearly in the relevant AD. A "prop strike" can be a prop strike with little or no damage to the prop, too, e.g., the tall grass or water cases. Sounds like there's definitely fishy stuff going on without further investigation, but if the prop was changed due to damage, I don't know how they can avoid an engine inspection. Some "inspections" are easier than others, but it should be documented in any case. Quote
LANCECASPER Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 12 hours ago, JWJR said: I would think the removal and IRAN would be around 4-6 amu so if you like the plane factor/negotiate that in. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Probably triple that. 1 Quote
shawnd Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Teardown inspection typically costs ~13K and mag overhaul around 2,750. This is very recent data from multiple shops around the country. Quote
hammdo Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Simple question for a decision to buy: Do we have 2 prop strikes on the same crank/engine in < 2 years? If yes and the first one did a tear down and was ok, what is the likelihood the Second strike causing damage? One strike may slide but will a second strike on the same engine/crank? Super nice looking plane but, I'd negotiate a price reduction for a TDI. A cracked crank replacement is not cheap... My plane suffered a prop strike years ago. It was IRANed and that was 7k for just the engine (basically a lower rebuild). I would not pass on the plane if there were room for negotiation and I was willing to accept the possibility of engine overhaul if issue came form the TDI... -Don 1 Quote
JWJR Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 Teardown inspection typically costs ~13K and mag overhaul around 2,750. This is very recent data from multiple shops around the country.I checked with Penn Yann and the quote was 11k and that includes the mags …regardless that’s way more than 5-6 No wonder insurance is going way up too. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
shawnd Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 1 minute ago, JWJR said: I checked with Penn Yann and the quote was 11k and that includes the mags …regardless that’s way more than 5-6 No wonder insurance is going way up too. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Very true ... it could be lower for the J. The quote I mentioned was for TSIO360MB. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted November 1, 2021 Report Posted November 1, 2021 I checked with Penn Yann and the quote was 11k and that includes the mags …regardless that’s way more than 5-6 No wonder insurance is going way up too. Don’t forget the cost to pull the engine, ship it (twice) , then reinstalled it. 1 Quote
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