Let's Make a Deal Or Else

[Will.iam]

27 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

@philip_g, you sound really angry.

@donkaye is a good guy. Very professional. I’ve flown with him several times. He used to tour with The Offspring so I’m sure he can tolerate a little discomfort and some unique personalities. I think he was sharing a story regarding a frustrating experience and trying to brainstorm to see how he could get a different outcome in the future. 

I’ve personally called the tower at my local field a couple of times when I had less than satisfactory exchanges on the air. Both times the exchanges were very educational and professional and we managed to share information in a very positive and meaningful way. I don’t think getting their number is necessarily a threat, I think it’s an acknowledgment that piloting an aircraft and controlling air traffic are two cognitively demanding tasks and that perhaps ideas can be more effectively communicated in a different setting.

On an unrelated note, has anyone heard the Opposing Bases podcast? It’s two controllers who are both pilots and they do a great job of explaining why ATC does the things they do.

Humm thanks for the suggestion ill have to check that pod cast out. 

[carusoam]

Communication is an interesting science…

On the radio… we have certain limitations to getting our message across…. And be understood as intended when the message gets there…

When speaking with ATC… it’s all business, with some flexibility…   Call it nuance.  The more experience you have… the better your nuance is.  

It really helps when you know the person on the other end, hundreds of miles away… or thousands of miles away…

 

A similar situation occurs every day on MS…. The limitations are different… yet similar…

 

That call me later, or I’ll call you later, routine is often replaced around here via a PM… 

 

The Cool thing about learning from Don Kaye… He really knows his stuff… check his Bio for the awards and list of skills… and decades in service…

 

Check yourself, before you wreck yourself…

Whether it is on the air, or in an Internet forum… there isn’t a time to try and prove you know more, or are better than the next guy…

There is always going to be a bigger fish…

 

If something doesn’t go as well on a flight as planned, or as expected… a private phone call is a great idea… you might learn from the guy on the other end what happened, and how it could be done better the next time…

It probably helps to have polished communication skills…

 

Of course, if your intent is to call somebody on the phone to share your displeasure… congratulations… you just won a special prize..!   
 

We learn a lot about everything when hanging out on MS…

It can take a while to get to know everyone…  

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Mooney Dog said:

Yes, and I'm willing to bet it was likely due to the fact FL180 was unavailable at that time. Whos to say, I don't know.  I would imagine controllers in Cali and Florida are probably some of the most overworked in the country, so simple changes may get brushed off with "I'm busy" a lot. 

One of the reasons we left Ogden later than I usually would was because of high pressure all the way to California.  Several times going across the country on this trip I asked for and got block altitudes for various reasons.  I wasn't denied once.  Given all the Commercial traffic going into the Bay Area I didn't try that this time.  Following the Mike Busch article, maybe I should have tried.  I took the easy way out, as I have done a number of times traversing the LA basin when it was VFR and I had exhausted my other 2 options (asking for direct off of V459, then VFR on top to take the separation burden off the Controller, and finally canceling IFR).

[donkaye]

My purpose in starting this thread had nothing to do with bad mouthing the Controller.  That never occurred to me.  It had everything to do with how to get what you want when things don't go as you would have liked.

[HIghpockets]

This has been a good thread about dealing with ATC. I would respectfully suggest that if you are interested in getting a peek at what goes on on the other side of the microphone is to listen to the "Opposing Bases" podcast. RH and AG are controllers and pilots who work the Triad Tracon.  Very funny and informative. (No COI).

[GeeBee]

Lots of staffing problems at ATC facilities due to Covid. I tread lightly now and cut them slack.

As for cancelling IFR and going 17.5, it works, I've done it. Not without great trepidation. Once you are above 10K, the oil burners are weapons free on speed in their climb outs. You need to keep an eye on the traffic display because you're going to have 500 knot closures. I used to do VFR 17.5 SJC-TRK pre-TCAS days, when I got frustrated with ATC until I had a close encounter with a 727 out of SMF. VFR flight following is no guarantee of separation and if the controller is saturated, you're last on the notify list, add staffing problems...mix well. 

[Bravoman]

7 hours ago, donkaye said:

One of the reasons we left Ogden later than I usually would was because of high pressure all the way to California.  Several times going across the country on this trip I asked for and got block altitudes for various reasons.  I wasn't denied once.  Given all the Commercial traffic going into the Bay Area I didn't try that this time.  Following the Mike Busch article, maybe I should have tried.  I took the easy way out, as I have done a number of times traversing the LA basin when it was VFR and I had exhausted my other 2 options (asking for direct off of V459, then VFR on top to take the separation burden off the Controller, and finally canceling IFR).

The one question that I have is about your VFR altitude. I know you could not go any higher with odd numbered altitudes without getting into the flight levels, but wasn’t 17,500 an incorrect altitude for the direction you were traveling?  I’m not trying to be critical or nitpicking, just trying to understand. 

[donkaye]

§ 91.159  VFR cruising altitude or  flight level.

Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an  aircraft under  VFR in LEVEL cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface.....

I was going over the Sierra Nevada Mountains.  I was not in level cruising flight, but changing altitudes to avoid moderate turbulence.  Once over the Sierras I started my descent into San Jose.  I was over 3,000 feet above terrain for about 10 minutes.  I was on Flight Following and in contact with ATC at all times.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

 I was not in level cruising flight . . .  I was over 3,000 feet above terrain for about 10 minutes.  I was on Flight Following and in contact with ATC at all times.

For the bulk of us not familiar with Kalifornian geography, this part was not clear at all. Thanks for the clarification!

[Stetson20]

14 hours ago, philip_g said:

Not to mention they might have several sectors combined up and several freqs you can't hear. I know this comes as a shock to many, but you're rarely the only plane in the sky and it's a lot less work to approve a request than deny it most the time. There's a reason you didn't get higher but that's less fun that bitching on the internet. Maybe throw in some complaints about lazy government employees too.

Lazy with poor attitudes usually go together.

[thinwing]

high teen flight levels are frequently wide open for turbo pistons with the  jet a burners well above that ...this case ,i wonder if a look at adsb traffic at that level woulf clear things up.Ive asked for higher also and been told unable and have been cleared under my own seperation...that said ..turbulence over the owens valley is no laughing matter...here you have two parallel moutain ridges at some of the highest elevation in the continental Us....think mount whitney at 14.5 k or white mountain at 14.3k.A good smooth ride in calm coditions begins at 17 k.Some of the most uncomfortable flights have been west bound over this valley

 

[ilovecornfields]

I’ve actually never gone perpendicular to the Owens Valley. I usually fly down the valley and cross West at LHS. Often, the turbulence is better on one side of the valley well below the ridgetops. 
 

I had one of the SOCAL controllers refuse to give me a different altitude while stuck in moderate turbulence in IMC. After asking twice I told him “I think I’m going to get sick if you keep refusing to let me climb out of this” and he quickly gave me a different altitude. I think it’s challenging for them because they don’t directly experience what we’re going through and we don’t see what they see (and know what they know with respect to LOAs, sectors, etc..) so sometimes you have a “failiure to communicate.” 

[Davidv]

2 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I’ve actually never gone perpendicular to the Owens Valley. I usually fly down the valley and cross West at LHS. Often, the turbulence is better on one side of the valley well below the ridgetops. 
 

I had one of the SOCAL controllers refuse to give me a different altitude while stuck in moderate turbulence in IMC. After asking twice I told him “I think I’m going to get sick if you keep refusing to let me climb out of this” and he quickly gave me a different altitude. I think it’s challenging for them because they don’t directly experience what we’re going through and we don’t see what they see (and know what they know with respect to LOAs, sectors, etc..) so sometimes you have a “failiure to communicate.” 

And if he refused that you would have said "I have a particular set of skills, skill's I've acquired over a very long flying career...."

[GeeBee]

True all that you got a lot of turbojet traffic descending into the Bay Area and LAX starting on the east side of the Sierras as well as LAS traffic. It is a lot busier than you might imagine. You also got climb outs. 

[whiskytango]

7 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Lots of staffing problems at ATC facilities due to Covid. I tread lightly now and cut them slack.

I have noticed this too, even at the local airport level.  At my home 'drome we have a good mixture of GA, Airline traffic, Military traffic, and Gulfstream flight testing.  Depending on the time of day you may hear the same voice doing all Clearance Delivery, Ground and Tower frequencies.  I don't remember it being that way before COVID.

[Davidv]

2 minutes ago, whiskytango said:

I have noticed this too, even at the local airport level.  At my home 'drome we have a good mixture of GA, Airline traffic, Military traffic, and Gulfstream flight testing.  Depending on the time of day you may hear the same voice doing all Clearance Delivery, Ground and Tower frequencies.  I don't remember it being that way before COVID.

On a side note, it's great when you get a controller that goes above and beyond.  I remember once talking to a guy at Washington approach who was extremely busy but pretty much acted like my co-pilot trying to navigate a line a weather I was trying to go through at FL220 (it was daytime, wouldn't try this at night).  He found me a hole and then would check on me every few minutes as I was flying through just to make sure I was alright (something like "Still going well 46 bravo lima?").  This was at the same time he was handling many other airliners going in and out of DC.

[N201MKTurbo]

The last time I flew to Tucson, I couldn't get CD on the radio. I tried ground and no answer. It took 15 minutes to get a taxi clearance. Then the same guy was on ground and tower and departure! I didn't even think they were in the same location. This is an airline airport with Class C.

[Will.iam]

Just a data point but when flying the nat tracks over the pond if you request an altitude change seemed 9 out of 10 times it was denied even when TCAS would not show any traffic which has a range of 40 miles. But when we got cpdlc and requested through that it seemed 9 out 10 times we were approved. Also liked reroute clearances as they came over cpdlc and all you had to do was click accept. Zero chance to get it wrong since it was the controller sending the way points. I’m really looking forward to when we start using cpdlc in the states as it frees up valuable radio time so those pilots without cpdlc can get a word in without there being so much radio transmissions going on.  

[GeeBee]

The reason why is because they can run traffic closer at the same altitudes with CPDLC than they could with plain radio. IOW, they could run the airspace more densely so altitude requests were more likely to be approved.