Camguard Cylinder Glazing?

[EchoMax]

A year ago we bought a well-equipped, well-maintained 1966 M20E, frequently flown except in the last year of the previous owner’s final illness. The PPI was perhaps unduly cursory, given the sterling reputation of the previous owner.

Our first indications of trouble were mag-check failure, fouled plugs, and excessive oil consumption. We replaced the spark plugs, magnetos, and the fuel diverter, but nothing changed. We were advised to just keep adding oil. We ignored this advice.

After further investigation, it was found that the cylinders were glazed. The cylinders have now been replaced, and meticulous break-in with mineral oil is underway. The engine is running great now: all previous problems solved and slightly increased power output.

Camguard, reportedly beloved by the previous owner, has been blamed for the cylinder glazing.

[hammdo]

Over recommended amount may do that. I measure mine and then fill extra oil bottles with just the recommended amounts. I use 47 cc/mm (1.6 Oz) in a syringe to measure it right. 

Interesting if that is what caused it. 

-Don 

[philiplane]

Glazing is caused by low power operations after an overhaul, where the rings fail to seat seat. Camguard would have no effect on that unless you used a massive amount from the moment of overhaul. The anti-wear properties would inhibit break in. 

[201Steve]

I just came out of engine overhaul and I suspect a glazed cylinder. I’ve been running the crap out of it at 75% power for 35 hours and “supposedly” the initial ground run at the OH shop was minimal, and they flew it for an hour at 75+%.  So, it appears there’s more than one way for it to happen, even if you do everything right (supposedly). We’ll see. 

[A64Pilot]

OK, there are pretty much three ways you can get low compression and high oil consumption, oil turns black in a hurry and high oil temp from excessive blow by, one is glazing, glazing is a physical clogging of the cross hatching on the cylinders, it’s what it sounds like they are glazed by something, a varnish like coating.

The other way is bore polishing which is pretty much just wearing away the cross hatching, and babying the engine during break in.

‘Sometimes glazing can be recovered from, I’ve seen it, liberal use of Marvel Mystery oil and running the snot out of it, but keeping it rich.

‘Whatever MMO is or isn’t, it seems to have detergent like properties, but then of course mineral spirits is a good cleaner

Glazing can be caused from overheating by excessive ground running at 1200 RPM or so warming up the oil, there is very little cooling air flow and 1200 is high enough to get the cylinders smoking hot, not the cylinder heads. but cylinders.

Babying the engine can sometimes keep the rings from seating, but shouldn’t glaze them, pretty much takes heat or some added substance that can bake into a glaze, OK if they don’t seat and you keep running it, then I guess they can glaze. I’ve never let one get that far

Rare for glazed cylinders to need replacing, if they are glazed then a good honing and new rings will get you back like new, never seen them needing to replaced, but that does of course get you to new.

‘Until we know what Camguard really is, I don’t think anyone can claim anything about it. I wish I had a quarter for every time I’ve heard a claim of what caused this or that that had no bearing on the case.

Often a cylinder’s rings just don’t seat, it’s got to be blamed on something so it’s glazing, you can see glazing in a bore scope, it literally looks like varnish, what I have seen had a slight brownish color to it.

Pop the jug off, have it professionally honed, but I have seen some use a dingle berry hone and it work, new rings and run the snot out of it for 10 hours, if they haven’t seated in 10 hours I doubt they will.

Edited June 12, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

OK, four ways, broken rings too

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, EchoMax said:

A year ago we bought a well-equipped, well-maintained 1966 M20E, frequently flown except in the last year of the previous owner’s final illness. The PPI was perhaps unduly cursory, given the sterling reputation of the previous owner.

Our first indications of trouble were mag-check failure, fouled plugs, and excessive oil consumption. We replaced the spark plugs, magnetos, and the fuel diverter, but nothing changed. We were advised to just keep adding oil. We ignored this advice.

After further investigation, it was found that the cylinders were glazed. The cylinders have now been replaced, and meticulous break-in with mineral oil is underway. The engine is running great now: all previous problems solved and slightly increased power output.

Camguard, reportedly beloved by the previous owner, has been blamed for the cylinder glazing.

Why did you replace the cylinders? That seems like a lot of money to spend when new rings and a rehone would have done the job. 

[EchoMax]

16 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Why did you replace the cylinders? That seems like a lot of money to spend when new rings and a rehone would have done the job. 

All four cylinders were glazed.  We had three options:  rehone, new cylinders, or reconditioned cylinders.  We opted for reconditioned based on the advice of our mechanic.

 

17 hours ago, philiplane said:

Glazing is caused by low power operations after an overhaul, where the rings fail to seat seat. Camguard would have no effect on that unless you used a massive amount from the moment of overhaul. The anti-wear properties would inhibit break in.

The theory is that the previous owner (now deceased) used Camguard during the initial break-in. Our MSC mechanic spoke to another highly-respected MSC mechanic who said that he's seen a few cases of Camguard-related glazing.

[GeeBee]

Break in instructions are clear.  Mineral oil, no additives. Period. If the owner added Cam Guard to mineral oil, he is an idiot and it is not the fault of CamGuard. Nor does it suggest CamGuard will cause cylinder glazing in properly seated engines.

 

[MBDiagMan]

My highly experienced IA mechanic holds the opinion that Camguard is snake oil.  He’ll pour it in if the owner supplies it and clearly wants it added, but he won’t sell it.

[N201MKTurbo]

That just seems weird to me. Why would anybody add Camgaurd during break-in? Break-in requires you to wear away metal. Why would you add an anti-wear additive?

[MBDiagMan]

As I understand it, camguard is not billed as an anti wear additive, although it may have a certain amount of anti wear agents.  It’s effectiveness is supposed to be due to its ability to cling  to the high cam and lifters over a longer period of time in order to prevent corrosion.  Corrosion is often what leads to the lifter spalling problem.

That said, it is correct that any additive is a bad idea during the break in process.  In fact, I have read that the mineral oil for break in is a throwback to the WWII era and is no longer necessary or desirable.  My Cessna engine broke in great with Cross Country.  They had already started pouring mineral oil in my fresh IO-360 Thursday before I noticed, so I let them fill it up with the stuff.   I will get it out as soon as I see consumption reduced.

[MBDiagMan]

I did some quick reading about Camguard.  I thought it interesting that they claim that they have anti wear additives superior to ZDDP but they did not say anything about what they are.  ZDDP is a sacrificial metal for extremely high pressure.  I wonder how they prevent extreme pressure wear without a sacrificial metal?

[MBDiagMan]

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/industry-news/oil-supplements-worth-it-for-many/

The Camguard blurb in this article indicates that it is largely an anti corrosive.

[EchoMax]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

That just seems weird to me. Why would anybody add Camgaurd during break-in? Break-in requires you to wear away metal. Why would you add an anti-wear additive?

It's just a theory, with no real evidence, that Camguard was added during break-in.  The previous owner has passed on, and he is unavailable for comment at this time, but he was reportedly very meticulous, and I find it hard to believe that he did something so stupid.

So we're left with the mystery of the four glazed cylinders.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

My highly experienced IA mechanic holds the opinion that Camguard is snake oil.  He’ll pour it in if the owner supplies it and clearly wants it added, but he won’t sell it.

My mom says I’m smart and handsome too....

Good for your mechanic.  Being a highly experienced IA does not necessarily translate to being knowledgeable about petrochemistry (nor many other things involving airplanes) although it can lend an air of confidence to one’s own anecdotal opinions.

Given that Aviation Consumer’s independent tests have shown that Camgaurd adds a significant level of corrosion resistance, I’d like to know the “why” behind his opinions.
 

The inventor of cam guard Ed Kollin, worked for Exxon’s Aviation lubricant division and was one of the principle researchers involved in the formulation of Exxon Elite aviation oil.  The man did a tremendous amount of Q&A on various aviation forums for many years. My take away from his comments are that camguard is his version of a “cost no objective” additive blend. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Shadrach

[MBDiagMan]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

My mom says I’m smart and handsome too....

Good for your mechanic.  Being a highly experienced IA does not necessarily translate to being knowledgeable of petrochemistry (nor many other things involving airplanes) although it can lend an air of confidence to one’s own anecdotal opinions.

Given that Aviation Consumer’s independent tests have shown that Camgaurd adds a significant level of corrosion resistance, I’d like to know the “why” behind his opinions.
 

The inventor of cam guard Ed Kollin, worked for Exxon’s Aviation lubricant division and was one of the principle researchers involved in the formulation of Exxon Elite aviation oil.  The man did a tremendous amount of Q&A on various aviation forums for many years. My take away from his comments are that can guard is his version of a “cost no objective” additive blend. 

Seeing a large number of results can be as, if not more, informative than chemical analysis.  Results is what interests me most.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

My highly experienced IA mechanic holds the opinion that Camguard is snake oil.  He’ll pour it in if the owner supplies it and clearly wants it added, but he won’t sell it.

See, I believe it’s basically preservative oil, Shell used to say for infrequently flown aircraft you can add up to 10% of their preservative oil. Number is from memory and I don’t have a copy of that.

It’s pretty common for any company’s flagship product to have more or better additive packages, Chevron premium car fuel had more techron than the cheaper stuff for example, I knew the Jobber well and additive packages are added after the fuel goes through the pipeline, even the alcohol is added after it comes out of the pipe.

‘Anyway I believe Shell 15W-50 has more of the anti oxidant additive than the less expensive oil, so ai use it. 

‘I was a big fan of Exxon Elite, used the last case I had the other day, have just one quart left.

But the first thing you have to buy into for these additives is to believe that major oil companies like Shell or engine manufacturers like Lycoming are stupid, or maybe lazy or maybe cheap, and I don’t believe that.

[PT20J]

Camguard has been around a while. Lots of owners use it. Seems like if this were an issue we’d have heard about it. 

[A64Pilot]

Why do any of you believe someone woud be stupid to use Camguard or any other additive during break-in? Never seen a bottle of Camguard myself, does it say that on the bottle?

I don’t believe in additives, I’ve heard so many times, it’s FAA approved, it must do what it says,which is not true, all the FAA cares about is proof that it does no harm.

 

On edit, I don’t believe non detergent oil is specified for break in because it allows more wear, I believe during times of excessive oil use the detergent can cause combustion chamber deposits, it’s not to allow more wear or faster wear, turbo motors run detergent oil for break-in. why? to keep the turbo center section bearing clean, but they break-in just as well. Detergent additives are not a lubricant additive.

The whole “good oil” is too slippery to allow break in is not true, but you hear it every day, “don’t use synthetic oil in your car for 10,000 miles” etc., but higher performance GM cars factory fill has been synthetic forever, and many new cars require 0W-20, which I believe is only available as a synthetic.

I wish there was an oil that was so good that it prevented wear so well that it wouldn’t allow break-in, imagine how long a motor might last?

Edited June 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

Oh, how do I wish there was a magic additive that would reduce wear 30% and therefore add 30% more hours to an engine

[MBDiagMan]

Ha!  You’re right!  They could jut multiply the TBO numbers by 1.3!

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Why do any of you believe someone woud be stupid to use Camguard or any other additive during break-in? Never seen a bottle of Camguard myself, does it say that on the bottle?

I don’t believe in additives, I’ve heard so many times, it’s FAA approved, it must do what it says,which is not true, all the FAA cares about is proof that it does no harm.

 

On edit, I don’t believe non detergent oil is specified for break in because it allows more wear, I believe during times of excessive oil use the detergent can cause combustion chamber deposits, it’s not to allow more wear or faster wear, turbo motors run detergent oil for break-in. why? to keep the turbo center section bearing clean, but they break-in just as well. Detergent additives are not a lubricant additive.

The whole “good oil” is too slippery to allow break in is not true, but you hear it every day, “don’t use synthetic oil in your car for 10,000 miles” etc., but higher performance GM cars factory fill has been synthetic forever, and many new cars require 0W-20, which I believe is only available as a synthetic.

I wish there was an oil that was so good that it prevented wear so well that it wouldn’t allow break-in, imagine how long a motor might last?

Lycoming requires AD oil for break-in of its turbocharged engines and mineral oil for its normally aspirated engines.

What’s different about the cylinders of turbocharged vs normally aspirated?

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, PT20J said:

Lycoming requires AD oil for break-in of its turbocharged engines and mineral oil for its normally aspirated engines.

What’s different about the cylinders of turbocharged vs normally aspirated?

So, I have a NA engine with a turbocharger. What's a guy supposed to do?

I ran the first 4 hours on mineral oil. than drained it to check the suction screen. I then put in AD oil and it has been in there ever since. I have about 20 hours on that oil. It turned green for some reason. The only thing I can think of is the Loctite 515 I used on the parting line was kind of greenish. Anyway, the level on the dipstick hasn't changed 1 mm.

[A64Pilot]

26 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Lycoming requires AD oil for break-in of its turbocharged engines and mineral oil for its normally aspirated engines.

What’s different about the cylinders of turbocharged vs normally aspirated?

I guess I’m going to learn something because I’m not aware of any significant difference between the two.

On edit I’ll add that from what I have seen an engine’s cylinders will break in just as well on AD oil as it will straight oil. turbo or no turbo 

The difference between the two is that AD oil has a detergent additive and maybe this additive may leave some deposits when it burns, and engines have been broken in on straight oil forever and it works, so why change it.

‘I speculate that a turbo is better if it gets detergent to keep the center section bearing clean, so it the turbo that requires the detergent

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by A64Pilot