I apologize but another landing question

[rbridges]

I've caught myself landing a little hard the last few times i.e. bouncing, so I've started to scrutinize my technique.  I've also read some old threads.  Obviously, I'm hitting the runway with too much speed.  My ASI is in knots, and I was using 70.  I went out and practiced today, using 65 knots as my "crossing the #'s" speed.  All my landings were good, but I don't know if it all can be attributed to the speed reduction.  BTW, I use full flaps in a typical landing.

Reading some old posts, I've seen people mention -5mph for every 300 lbs under gross.  Is this just on short final or throughout the whole pattern?  I would think just short final since the rest shouldn't matter. 

My other question is about pulling back on the yoke.  When training in the 172, I was told to pull it all the way back as far as it would go during the flare and prior to touchdown.  I've noticed I'm probably only going back 3/4.  Another sloppy habit I've developed.  I assume I should have the yoke in my lap on touchdown, correct?

I realize every plane is a little different with its handling, and I'll have to practice, practice, practice.  Thanks for the help.  

 

[PTK]

You know your speeds for your airplane. Stick to them because they work!  As far as yoke, the tendency is to land too soon without completing the flare. In other words you should aim for a stall onto the runway. This can only happen if you keep pulling back on the yoke to bleed of excess speed until it stalls. Landing too soon invariably means you are too fast and it only takes a little excess energy to find yourself in a bounce. If you find yourself bouncing you can probably salvage the landing with a burst of power but if you bounce a second time get out of there!!

Flaps are not needed all the time. In windy conditions it's best not to use flaps or maybe just take-off flaps.

[201er]

Quote: rbridges

Reading some old posts, I've seen people mention -5mph for every 300 lbs under gross.  Is this just on short final or throughout the whole pattern?  I would think just short final since the rest shouldn't matter. 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: rbridges

I've caught myself landing a little hard the last few times i.e. bouncing, so I've started to scrutinize my technique.  I've also read some old threads.  Obviously, I'm hitting the runway with too much speed.  My ASI is in knots, and I was using 70.  I went out and practiced today, using 65 knots as my "crossing the #'s" speed.  All my landings were good, but I don't know if it all can be attributed to the speed reduction.  BTW, I use full flaps in a typical landing.

Reading some old posts, I've seen people mention -5mph for every 300 lbs under gross.  Is this just on short final or throughout the whole pattern?  I would think just short final since the rest shouldn't matter. 

My other question is about pulling back on the yoke.  When training in the 172, I was told to pull it all the way back as far as it would go during the flare and prior to touchdown.  I've noticed I'm probably only going back 3/4.  Another sloppy habit I've developed.  I assume I should have the yoke in my lap on touchdown, correct?

I realize every plane is a little different with its handling, and I'll have to practice, practice, practice.  Thanks for the help.  

 

[rbridges]

Quote: GeorgePerry

The first thing to do to make your landings better is get out of the pattern.  Airspeed control in a mooney is absolutely crutial.  Every 1 knot of excess airspeed you have crossing the numbers, will equate to an additional 100 feet of ground roll.  Nail the airspeed and your landing distances will be shorter and your touchdowns will be smoother. 

Load up the plane to match your typical landing weight.  Climb to altitude, practice some power off, dirty stalls (Gear flaps down) and note your indicated airspeeds at the following check points.  (1) Stall horn (2) Light buffet (3) heavy buffet and (4) stall.  Typically you'll see your J stall around 55-60 Knots indicated, depending on weight.  Be sure not to climb as you do the stalls...just hold your altitude and let the plane slow down to stall.  If your plane is rigged correctly, isn't bent and the airspeed indicator is reasonably accurate you should see the following speeds at Max Gross:

Stall = 60 IAS (at gross wt of 2740)

Heavy buffet = 62 knots IAS

Light buffet = 64 knots IAS

Stall Horn = 66-70 knots (depending on rigging)

Most CFI's recommend Vs x 1.2 for a target airspeed on short final.  So 60 x 1.2 = 72 KIAS at Max gross wt.

Of course no one flys around at max gross so your numbers will be slower.  Once you determine your "Actual" stall speed at your typically mission weight then all you have to do is multiply.  For typically landing weights of 2300 lbs your stall speed will be near 55 knots.  So if you multiply 55 x 1.2 you get 66 KIAS.  That'll be a typicall target airspeed crossing the runway threshold.  If you do this correctly you'll have 10-12 knots of airspeed to bleed in the flare with the throttle at idle, which won't take too long.  Put the plane in ground effect (2-4 feet off the runway) and as the excess airspeed begins to bleed off, smootly pull back on the yoke, being carefull not too baloon back up.  Allow the AOA to increase and airspeed to decay.  Once your AOA / Airspeed approach stall your main wheels should be just off the runway (a few inches).  Once the plane quits flying it'll settle smoothly on the pavement.  Keep a slight amount of backstick pressure on the yoke, so the nosewheel doesn't slam down.  Whatever you do NEVER push forward on the yoke to "plant" a Mooney on the runway.  Make sure the plane is ready to land both in terms of airspeed and AOA (attitude), because three pointer's in a Mooney can quickly deteriorate into a porposing disaster.

Lastly I need to discuss turbulence.  If your at pattern altitude and you notice airspeed deviations because of turbulence you'll need to pad your target airspeeds to compensate for immediate airspeed loss due to the rough air.  My rule of thumb is "add what you see - plus 3".  What this means is if you see +/-5 knots of airspeed fluctuation due to turbulence, add a total of 8 knots to your approach speeds.  Going back to a typicall final approach speed of 66+8 results in a 74 knot approach speed over the threshold in rough air.  Your landing distances will increase but the additional airspeed provides the required safety margin and mitigates the possibility of a sudden increased rate of decent or worse case, a stall on short final.  I also like using full flaps in turbulent air as long as its aligned with the runway...that way after touchdown I can raise the flaps, dump the lift and use the brakes to help slow down.

I hope this answers your questions...If your plane shows different speeds that's fine, just tailor your speeds for your particular plane.

[Mooneymite]

Without going into an in depth analysis, I would suggest you try landing with less than full flaps and see if that helps.  (Unless your landing distance is critical.)

[M016576]

Quote: Mooneymite

Without going into an in depth analysis, I would suggest you try landing with less than full flaps and see if that helps.  (Unless your landing distance is critical.)

[johnggreen]

rbridges,

Before you do anything else, find a copy of the FAA publication, Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3.  It has now been replaced by 8083-3A which will not have the chapter to which I am going to refer.  I think you can find 8083-3 on Amazon; BUY IT.  It has a chapter and graph on ground effect (Section 3-8) that will help you understand why the Mooney can be a bitch to land.  In other words, it's not really your fault.

I'm not going to go into a full description, but ground effect is primarily about the reduction of induced drag, not increased lift.

That being said, let me add my input and read my signature, "Even a fool says something right some of the time".

First, properly landing an airplane is not about how far you pull the yoke back or whether you are fully stalled.  It's about "landing attitude".  I'm surprised that GeorgePerry did not address that because he certainly understands it.  So George, you explain.

Secondly, in a cross wind, there are only two ways to keep an airplane from drifting off the center line; lowering a wing (essentially creating horozontal lift) or crabbing into the wind thereby creating a horozontal drift opposie that of the wind.  Once the airplane touches down, the first option (lowering a wing) is gone.  Once your tires touch the ground you will either crab into the wind, get sufficient weight on the tires to overcome the force of the drift, or drift across the runway.

With the Mooney, you will find it almost impossible to immediately create enough weight on the tires to overcome the drift so you will probably land with a crab, then transition to the traction of the tires as you lose lift.

One more point.  Remember that just because the tires are on the ground, it doesn't mean you aren't creating lift.  In fact, as long as there is any significant airflow over the wing, you are creating lift.  The good news is that the cross wind is tending to disrupt and lessen that lift more quickly than if you were landing into a headwind.

Whew,  Are you still reading?  If so, the long and short of it, in a stiff crosswind you are literally flying the airplane onto the runway at a minimal "landing attitude".  i would strongly advise doing this on half flaps.  That gives you ability to "dump" some lift immediately on touch down.  Full flaps only exacerbate the ground effect so I don't recommend.

GeorgePerry also gave a rule of thumb on increasing approach speeds.  Another one is 1/2 half of gust speeds to maximum of 15 knots.  

The main thing you need is experience and confidence.  i landed my Bravo once at Omaha in a 50 knot wind with a reported 50 knot wind shear.  I'm not sure what my touchdown speed was, but i do know that at the start of my flare, the airspeed was 105 knots indicated.  Started the approach with a hemmoroid and ended up with tosilitis.  I sweat the airplane greased on.

First thing, get FAA- H-8083-3.

jgreen

[jetdriven]

John, thats spoken like Jesus from heaven. Well said. 

[johnggreen]

jetdriven,

Thanks for the accolade.  You know, "even a fool" applies to me too.  It is obvious from your posts that you understand the phenomenom so as I offer the following comments, I'm not lecturing you, just using you as a sounding board for the benefit of anyone who at this point does not fully understand the "landing environment".

I used to write some articles for The Mooney Pilot and was working on one about landing a Mooney (without killing yourself or doing structural damage) when the mag shut down.  I did a lot of research and conferred with several really knowledgeable aeronautical engineers in the process.  I was lucky to come across one who had done a doctoral thesis on the subject. I'm not an engineer, but the AE helped me get a fool's understanding of some of the issues that come into play.  One thing I found interesting is that the degree of ground effect is largely determined by the closest point of the wing to the ground.  If memory serves me correctly, when you have full flaps down on a Mooney, there is only about 17" between the flap edge and the runway.  If you follow the curve on a ground effect graph, you will find that by the time the wing is within 2/10ths of the span from the ground (about 7' in a Mooney) the coeficient of induced drag is down about 30% from the induced drag when you are out of ground effect.  At 1/10th of span from the runway (3' in a Mooney) induced drag is down by 50%.

Taking it one step further, at 17" from the runway (distance from edge of extended flap to runway in the Mooney), it would appear that induced drag is down over 60% from being out of ground effect.

So, at the point of touchdown, when the wing is teetering from producing enough lift to keep the airplane aloft and not, there you are with no drag.  Parasite drag is negligible, especially in a clean airplane like the Mooney and induced drag is down to less than 40% of "normal".  With the even minimal static thrust of the propeller, there is almost nothing to slow the airplane down to get enough weight on the wheels to become a land vehicle rather than an airplane.  That is, as you well recognize, why "landing attitude" is more essential than any other factor for a safe landing.

 The Ground Effect graph can be found at page 3-9 of the Airplane Flying Handbook FAA-H-8083-3 which came out in 1999.  In the subsequent edition, 8083-3A, the FAA inexplicably dropped not only the graph but the rather complete explanation of ground effect that had been in the previous edition.  Go figure.  You can still find a few used copies of 8083-3 on Amazon for under $10 or the new and not improved edition on line for free.

I post sporatically but do read most posts.  Yours are usually among the most knowledgeable and I think quite valuable.  Frankly, I have to be careful to not get my dander up when someone posts uninformed opinions posing as knowledge that truly do go to the safe and legal operation of our aircraft and our privileges as pilots.  They say as a boxer gets older, the first thing to go is "the legs".  I think as I get older, the first thing I'm losing is patience; I exercise everyday and the legs seem to be fine.

Well, that was long winded as hell, but there is certainly a lot of opportunity for input from the guys who truly understand what keeps an airplane in the air and what doesn't.  Considering the percentage of accidents that come during the takeoff and landing phase of flight, it can't be discussed (intelligently) too much, and yes, it would appear that Mooneys are significantly more prone to those accidents.

Flew to and from Virginia this week and used TKS a little both ways so the Bravo is a mess.  Looks like I'm going to be airplane washing today.  All of you have a good day, You Hear.

jgreen

 

[Mooneymite]

Quote: M016576

I would follow George's advice instead.  It will pay off in the long run if you can hone your full flap landing skills, rather than try to rely on half flap approaches.

[scottfromiowa]

Great topic.  Thank you all for your comments.  This thread and MooneySpace would have been invaluable when I was first learning to land my M20E with different wind/temp/load conditions.  This topic can not be discussed enough.  I learn something new every time landing and pattern are reviewed on the board.  Many with way more experience and time than I.  The go around...just another opportunity to achieve that never attained "perfect landing".

[jetdriven]

Really, with 8,500 hours it took me about 30 landings to get it just right.  Dang how slow do you really need to get to land this thing?  And I has about 25-30 Mooney hours from ten years ago along with other brand "C", "B", and "P" time.  Fly this thing like a jet, right on the numbers and with the right power settings and pitch.  What feels right, often, is not.  I might even get me a smooth landing one day.

[Shadrach]

I have post the formulas below several times, but thought they would be of use here and would build off of what George stated earlier. There are a lot of rules of thumb for reducing speed at lower weights, but it would be a good exercise to go through the numbers and see for yourself what works. The MGW in my F model is 2740lbs as seen below, but the formula works for any AC. 

67 F Model

2740lbs = 54 knots.

1.2 x 54KIAS=65KCAS = ~75mph

1.3 x 54KIAS=70KCAS = ~81mph

2000lbs =

2000/2740 = 0.723
Square root of 0.723 = 0.850
0.850 x 54KTAS= 46KCAS = ~53mph

1.2 x 46 KTAS =  55KCAS = ~63mph

1.3 x 46KTAS = 60KCAS = ~69mph

Note, while numbers are correctly given in KCAS, KIAS is going to be in the ball park...

As for the yoke position, its position is a symptom more than the cause in a good landing. I do not see how you could  have full aft yoke and be flying as fast as you are. The yoke need not be full aft to do a full (or nearly full) stall landing, as mentioned before.   The only time I find that I have full aft yoke is during the last part of the flare during short field landings at very low speeds (1.1Vso) in a descent to the runway with the wing unloaded. Short-field technique does not feel natural at first, it feels slow and sluggish while falling towards the runway only, to be arrested by flare and ground effect.  I am not advocating that you go out and try landing at a 1600ft strip; first get comfortable with normal operations.   The next time you're practicing normal landings pull back on the yoke after touchdown and see what happens. If the mains leave the ground, then you're not really landing so much as flying it down the runway with the wheels touching waiting for it to slow to less than flying speed. I see lots of Mooney pilots employing this technique, but that does not make it a good one...

Crosswinds - I use approach flaps if winds are high (>12kts) other than that, I think that full flap landings done on speed are the best way to get the plane down and planted. During a xwind landing, you are flying your upwind wheel onto the runway first. This means using aileron to hold the aircraft on center line and rudder to align the plane with the runway. In other words cross control, which many will say is bad and that the "crab and kick" is superior. I am not a proponent of the "crab and kick" because it has the potential to side stress the downwind main gear leg first in the direction it folds during retraction, whereas any side stresses during a properly executed “slip to landing" will side stress the upwind main gear leg first and against the down limit.

 

 

[John Pleisse]

9 times out of 10, if you are rusty on landings, your visual scan has slowed or you are fixating on a point not far past your cowling. 70 KIAS over the numbers and keep your scan far down the runway.

[Shadrach]

70 KIAS over the numbers is fast in my airplane unless I'm at gross. 70MPH works quite well for my more typical loading of ~400 under gross... 

[KSMooniac]

Thanks for everyone's input.  I believe it turned out to be back pressure on the yoke.  I've done about 20 landings since I started the post.  I dropped my speed to 65-68 knots, and I've added more back pressure prior to touchdown.  Landings have been much better.  Just dropping the speed kept me from bouncing the front, but I could tell the front wheel was still dropping a little hard.  Pulling the yoke back a little further took the "thud" out of the touch down.  It's funny how bad habits creep into your technique b/c I remember being told to pull back during my private pilot lessons.

Anyway, thanks for all the info.  I asked around the FBO, and it's amazing how much bad info I got about speeds over the #'s.  It's nice to have access to a bunch of mooney pilots online.

[rbridges]

that's my post above.  another forum log in glitch.

[Hank]

Quote: rbridges

that's my post above.  another forum log in glitch.

[Shadrach]

My technique is a little different than Hank’s for pattern work.  I use midfield downwind as the point for gear down/open cowl flaps. Half flaps abeam the numbers. 75% flaps on base, and full flaps leveling out on final.  I do this because if something were to happen to my engine on down wind, a clean airplane will easily glide the pattern from midfield power off if there’s a problem, a dirty one, not so much.

For typical loading (about 2300lbs = VSO of 50KCAS), I'm about 90KIAS abeam the numbers on downwind slowing from that point to ~75KIAS during base and continue slowing to ~60KIAS (~1.2 VSO) by short final with full flaps. If I've done everything perfectly (which is rare), I need very little in the way of throttle input. I am usually slightly above glide slope (VASI) until short final at which point I am using pitch to maintain target airspeed. This equates to what feels like a relatively steep descent to the runway at a relatively low speed of about 60KIAS (~70mph for us vintage guys). This results in enough energy for a nice flare to a "main gear first" full stall landing with plenty of speed to hold the nose off for another 150ft or so. For short fields I use about 55KIAS (1.1 VSO) or just above 60mph indicated across the numbers. 

 

[Hank]

Ross--

That's part of the difference between models, and even years of manufacture for us Vintage pilots. [As in "pilots of Vintage aircraft," not "Pilots of a certain vintage."    ]  My flap speed is 125 mph, gear is 120 mph, but since the question involved speed during the approach and flare, I left those out. I generally put in Takeoff flaps by midfield, and drop gear abeam my intended touchdown point. At my home field, these two are immediate, as soon as the flaps are down I drop the gear and begin my descent; at longer runways, there can be a substantial pause in between.

I'm also not a fan of full-flap landings, preferring to follow the advice in my Owner's Manual:  "FLAPS--FULL DOWN or as desired." I put them to Takeoff on downwind, drop gear, reduce throttle a little bit and pitch for 90 mph. If I need more descent, I add more flaps on final; if my slope looks good, I don't; if the wind is really strong, gusty or crosswind, I won't.

The point is to be consistent with speeds, and fly the correct number. Mid-bodies like your F will handle differently than those of us in short-bodies, and only ROP/LOP and bladders/seals brings out a similar passion to flap position for "normal" landings. I do what works for me in my airplane. YMMV.   Just don't come in fast and try to force it down, porpoises are not fun and can be expensive. Like any plane, your Mooney won't land if you are too fast, but ours float much further while speed bleeds off slowly. I find a flatter pattern than in a Cessna works very well. I also cannot duplicate the gear down, power off, pitch for the runway that Bonanza pilots seem to prefer, I keep the same glidepath all the way down final until the flare.

[Seth]

I've been reading this thread very carefully as since I've gotten the Missile, I feel the heavier plane has affected my technique.  I porpised for the first time, bouncing twice, due to coming in too fast on Saturday, went around, and then had an okay landing.  When I headed for home after lunch, I arrived with the best landing in the Missile thus far (maybe one of my top 10 landings of all time - it was that smooth) - watch your speed, back pressure, and hold the plane six inches off the runway as long as you can once you are at idle (when you have a decent runway that is 3000 feet plus).

Take care,

-Seth

[Hank]

Seth--

Congratulations on your recovery! I've only porpoised once, after dark, coming home from my first overnight trip and I was so happy to be home that I quit flying the plane in the flare. On bounce #2, everything full forward and climb over where I hope the trees are and make another landing attempt. I kept thinking, "just make a normal landing, figure out what went wrong later." I typically pull all remaining power on short final, once I know I've got the trees cleared and can see the runway number, and I'm usually down on the 2nd or 3rd stripe.

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: Hank

Ross--

That's part of the difference between models, and even years of manufacture for us Vintage pilots. [As in "pilots of Vintage aircraft," not "Pilots of a certain vintage."    ]  My flap speed is 125 mph, gear is 120 mph, but since the question involved speed during the approach and flare, I left those out. I generally put in Takeoff flaps by midfield, and drop gear abeam my intended touchdown point. At my home field, these two are immediate, as soon as the flaps are down I drop the gear and begin my descent; at longer runways, there can be a substantial pause in between.

I'm also not a fan of full-flap landings, preferring to follow the advice in my Owner's Manual:  "FLAPS--FULL DOWN or as desired." I put them to Takeoff on downwind, drop gear, reduce throttle a little bit and pitch for 90 mph. If I need more descent, I add more flaps on final; if my slope looks good, I don't; if the wind is really strong, gusty or crosswind, I won't.

The point is to be consistent with speeds, and fly the correct number. Mid-bodies like your F will handle differently than those of us in short-bodies, and only ROP/LOP and bladders/seals brings out a similar passion to flap position for "normal" landings. I do what works for me in my airplane. YMMV.   Just don't come in fast and try to force it down, porpoises are not fun and can be expensive. Like any plane, your Mooney won't land if you are too fast, but ours float much further while speed bleeds off slowly. I find a flatter pattern than in a Cessna works very well. I also cannot duplicate the gear down, power off, pitch for the runway that Bonanza pilots seem to prefer, I keep the same glidepath all the way down final until the flare.

[Apollo]

I am glad somebody else has problems.

Lately I haven't been flying my relatives M20C as much. I used to fly it every other weekend but recently he got his medical back so now it's more of 'his airplane,' again. It's an awesome thing!!!

Only downside is I have been flying irregularly(once a month) and I have been flying more bonanzas lately.

 

I went flying out here in West Texas down to Brownwood. The winds were gusting fierce, about 30 degrees off the runway gusting about 10-15 kts extra on top of the regular wind.

I came in to land, I was too fast too high and couldn't get my power where I wanted it. I kept scaring myself on the flare because I am flaring too high. I keep pulling back on the nose and it throws my landing/pitch attitude all out of whack where the runway almost disappears out of sight from the nose.

I end up landing with a thud because I am flaring higher than I should be. I have started to scare myself a little bit and it's frustrating.

I used to have great pride that I could land mooney's but they have humbled me more and more recently. I enjoy landing the Bonanzas more lately, as I think they're easier especially in the crosswind conditions we have out here in West Texas.

 

 

Anyway...... I think the lesson I've learned here is that I have let my final approach speeds get way too fast for the 1 passenger (2 total) and full fuel I am flying around lately.