Landing Height System for Mooney

[hammdo]

Right master switch on...

-Don

[Microkit]

38 minutes ago, Hank said:

Sorry, the hammdo link won't erase on my phone . . . .

The red Gear Unsafe light is ON whenever the Master Switch is On and the gear are up. The green Gear Safe light is ON whenever the Master Switch is On and the gear are down and locked.

Either the red or green gear light is ON all the time, with a brief delay when going from one indication to the other. At least in my C.

 

Great.  So one of the options would fit.   If the switch controlling the Green light is providing power to the light when switched, then the selection would be to detect voltage (Gear Down) option in the LHS setup.  If the light is always powered from its first node and the switch grounds the 2nd node when switched, then the selection would be to detect ground activation option in the setup.   

[carusoam]

Great updates and announcements Nidal!

Best regards,

-a-

[alexz]

On 7/29/2022 at 5:45 PM, Microkit said:

 

Great.  So one of the options would fit.   If the switch controlling the Green light is providing power to the light when switched, then the selection would be to detect voltage (Gear Down) option in the LHS setup.  If the light is always powered from its first node and the switch grounds the 2nd node when switched, then the selection would be to detect ground activation option in the setup.   

Hello, would I get gear warning on takeoff if the gear is raised quickly upon leaving terra-firma ?

Thanks!

[Microkit]

53 minutes ago, alexz said:

Hello, would I get gear warning on takeoff if the gear is raised quickly upon leaving terra-firma ?

Thanks!

Not on takeoff.   The system detection zone is activated on descending

Thanks.

[Danb]

Hi Nidal we spoke about my static noise prior to Oshkosh, I go into annual next week, the static noise has actually worsened I turn it on just prior to landing until I get it resolved.

TY

Dan

[Fly Boomer]

12 minutes ago, Danb said:

static noise has actually worsened I turn it on just prior to landing until I get it resolved.

If the box requires 14 volts, and your airplane is 28, there may be a buck/boost circuit in there making the noise.  A (misguided) friend of mine had this issue with some cheap LED lights on his Comanche.

[Microkit]

27 minutes ago, Danb said:

Hi Nidal we spoke about my static noise prior to Oshkosh, I go into annual next week, the static noise has actually worsened I turn it on just prior to landing until I get it resolved.

TY

Dan

@Danb Please refer back to the latest emails exchanged on July 14th.  Jay (Support Tech) mentioned we are waiting for the certification of the new models and you replied that you will wait to send it back to be checked when the upgrade boards are in.   Though it will be great if we get answers to the questions we posted here back in June; see below for a  direct link on those questions which will aid us in further troubleshooting, mainly because you mentioned it was ok then after a while developed the noise.      Also, will be helpful if you recall any work done on the plane just before the noise started; routing a new wire that carries antenna/adsb/radio transmitter or any high current in the same bundle can inject noise.

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/36596-landing-height-system-for-mooney/?do=findComment&comment=732675

 

19 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

If the box requires 14 volts, and your airplane is 28, there may be a buck/boost circuit in there making the noise.  A (misguided) friend of mine had this issue with some cheap LED lights on his Comanche.

@Fly Boomer  Unit accepts both 14/28V by default.  Almost everyone does not have noise and the handful of cases we got back with noise issue were mainly running the audio wire along high gauge battery line or alternator line.

 

[PT20J]

It seems that a lot of MSers really like this product. I get the advantage of the altitude-based gear warning, but I don't quite get how it helps with landings. Once you figure out the sight picture, knowing when to start the flare becomes second nature. For me, if I have the airspeed nailed and the airplane trimmed and stable well before the flare, the biggest variable in landing is smoothly flying down the last foot to the runway for a smooth touchdown. By "flying it down" I mean controlling attitude and sink rate with control and power inputs and not letting it touch until it is in the right attitude, aligned with the runway, with no drift and near zero sink rate. I don't see how this device would help during the last foot.

On the other hand, Don Kaye @donkaye likes it and I  don't believe there is anyone alive with more experience landing Mooneys than Don. So please, everyone, share specifically how it improves your landings.

Thanks,

Skip

[Microkit]

45 minutes ago, PT20J said:

It seems that a lot of MSers really like this product. I get the advantage of the altitude-based gear warning, but I don't quite get how it helps with landings. Once you figure out the sight picture, knowing when to start the flare becomes second nature. For me, if I have the airspeed nailed and the airplane trimmed and stable well before the flare, the biggest variable in landing is smoothly flying down the last foot to the runway for a smooth touchdown. By "flying it down" I mean controlling attitude and sink rate with control and power inputs and not letting it touch until it is in the right attitude, aligned with the runway, with no drift and near zero sink rate. I don't see how this device would help during the last foot.

On the other hand, Don Kaye @donkaye likes it and I  don't believe there is anyone alive with more experience landing Mooneys than Don. So please, everyone, share specifically how it improves your landings.

Thanks,

Skip

 

It does really fit the certification; NORSEE.  Stands for Non-Required Safety Enhancement Equipment.  It is indeed Non-Required.   Consider someone just used to a certain width runway for many hours then visiting a wider width runway, or with a slope, much longer or shorter, then there is night.  Sight picture do change.   It's purely an extra aid.  Consider transition training from a C150 to a Mooney, for example.  Consider coming to land after a really long flight with eyes strained from sky scanning. 

Based on pilot feedback; a customer with twin Comanche said he always bounced the airplane, and never when started using the system.

We agree 100% that if pilots “nail” the speed, approach angle and cut-off power at the right time/location and then flare exactly at the mark, then it's a perfect landing all the time. But there are always variables at play.

A high percentage of our customers are actually airline and ex-airline pilots as they understand the system is not just to make them land perfectly every single time, but it gives them extra aid.   And it's priced right compared to other certified equipment we put on our airplanes nowadays.

[alexz]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

It seems that a lot of MSers really like this product. I get the advantage of the altitude-based gear warning, but I don't quite get how it helps with landings. Once you figure out the sight picture, knowing when to start the flare becomes second nature. For me, if I have the airspeed nailed and the airplane trimmed and stable well before the flare, the biggest variable in landing is smoothly flying down the last foot to the runway for a smooth touchdown. By "flying it down" I mean controlling attitude and sink rate with control and power inputs and not letting it touch until it is in the right attitude, aligned with the runway, with no drift and near zero sink rate. I don't see how this device would help during the last foot.

On the other hand, Don Kaye @donkaye likes it and I  don't believe there is anyone alive with more experience landing Mooneys than Don. So please, everyone, share specifically how it improves your landings.

Thanks,

Skip

I'm all for landing gear warning, having altitude readout is secondary since I find Mooney is the easiest plane to land nicely once you get the sight picture. But if landing gear warning reminds me even once when I actually forget GUMPS or skip "U" it pretty much paid for itself many times over.

[Steve Parker]

2 hours ago, Microkit said:

...A high percentage of our customers are actually airline and ex-airline pilots as they understand the system is not just to make them land perfectly every single time, but it gives them extra aid.   And it's priced right compared to other certified equipment we put on our airplanes nowadays.

That would be me, ex-military pilot, ex-airline.  Having this system, especially when transitioning to the new aircraft, or with a narrower/wider than usual runway, or reduced visibility or light, it's a nice assist. 

It's like having another pilot to run checklists.  Yes, I can run checklists myself and I mentally review them but I take help where it's useful. 

Both my angle of attack HUD and my LHS are part of my scan that allows my head to be "out of the cockpit" in a critical phase of flight as a single pilot.  Others may feel it unnecessary.  Neither are correct.  It's a personal preference.  I don't 'need' my G1000 either.   I have thousands of hours with steam gauges, but I prefer to use the newer equipment. 

We all have some aspect of flying technique that grabs our interest.  Leaning techniques, self-done maintenance, upgrading or restoring, instructing.  

[PT20J]

I’m not knocking the system at all.

But many of the reviews say it improved landings and I’m just curious how it does that. Does it help you figure out when to begin the flare, or conduct the flare, or recover from a wind gust, or something else?

Skip

[dfurst]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I’m not knocking the system at all.

But many of the reviews say it improved landings and I’m just curious how it does that. Does it help you figure out when to begin the flare, or conduct the flare, or recover from a wind gust, or something else?

Skip

For me, sitting that low, peering over the dash, with bifocals, I never could get the right sight.  I was always flaring a little high then over flaring and dropping  the last few feet.  Not great in any plane but especially in a Mooney.

With the LHS, I nail my speed and decent and focus on keeping them right all the way down to 20 feet.  I then start the level off part of the flare when it calls out 10 feet.  I then finish the round out when it drops below 5 feet.  Huge improvement.  Most landings are very smooth.

Also, on windy days, I can focus on wind correction and get one wheel down first.

For perspective, this is my 3rd Mooney and I have over 600 hours in Mooneys.  C Model was wicked easy to land.  K wasn't bad.  Current long body (R) has been a challenge for me, till LHS

[Microkit]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

I’m not knocking the system at all.

But many of the reviews say it improved landings and I’m just curious how it does that. Does it help you figure out when to begin the flare, or conduct the flare, or recover from a wind gust, or something else?

Skip

We got asked a few times if there is a specific technique to fly the LHS, and we always say each pilot develops their own.  

When we ask several users on how they fly it, each will have a different answer.  

Personally, on a Lancair 360; I come with power; cut it 30% or so when hearing 5 ft and pull power out when hearing 2; then flare at 1. Other Lancair pilots may use it completely different. Hence, we don't recommend following a specific technique by default without trying various ones; there is a personal touch involved as well.    

When to cut power is also different if coming in with no flaps, for example.  

You get valuable hints when hearing the numbers being announced at a faster (or slower) rate than normal.  

[Danb]

20 hours ago, Microkit said:

@Danb Please refer back to the latest emails exchanged on July 14th.  Jay (Support Tech) mentioned we are waiting for the certification of the new models and you replied that you will wait to send it back to be checked when the upgrade boards are in.   Though it will be great if we get answers to the questions we posted here back in June; see below for a  direct link on those questions which will aid us in further troubleshooting, mainly because you mentioned it was ok then after a while developed the noise.      Also, will be helpful if you recall any work done on the plane just before the noise started; routing a new wire that carries antenna/adsb/radio transmitter or any high current in the same bundle can inject noise.

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/36596-landing-height-system-for-mooney/?do=findComment&comment=732675

 

@Fly Boomer  Unit accepts both 14/28V by default.  Almost everyone does not have noise and the handful of cases we got back with noise issue were mainly running the audio wire along high gauge battery line or alternator line.

 

Thanks Nidal I’ll get in touch in a couple weeks. You provide exceptional customer service 

DB

[Steve Parker]

On 8/2/2022 at 9:51 AM, PT20J said:

...many... say it improved landings and I’m just curious how it does that. Does it help you figure out when to begin the flare, or conduct the flare, or recover from a wind gust, or something else?

Getting back into the cockpit after decades since flying big stuff, I need to get the landing attitude fixed in my mind.  I tend to stop my round out too soon, thinking my nose is at the proper attitude when it needs to be a bit higher.  The LHS system helps in this because it provided height above runway during the flare which is usually my highest focus.  The LHS allows me to put a far greater part of my attention on completing the round out and flare attitude. 

Will the attitude picture soon become ingrained and need no conscious attention?  Sure.  But there's the unexpected gusts that balloon an otherwise good approach.  As I correct for the gust it's nice that the height is called out so I can put my attention to alignment, power and other corrections it might need, etc.   Rain, night, poor visibility, knowing in the dark when I sail over that line of unlit trees near the runway.  In all of these, it's helpful to have an aide in one portion of what demands my attention.

For me it's like pre-solo landings in 1979 in the Champ.  It's just alignment and drift correction but initially it felt I was all over the sky and a frightful danger.  But once alignment (or was it drift) became unconscious I had plenty of brain-space open to handle wind drift correction.  Then it seemed east, too easy, almost like on ambu-

The LHS system automates judging height through the flare and landing which allows my mind more brain-space for my other tasks of the landing.  For severe clear, calm weather the LHS will become less important, but I will feel it worth many times it's purchase price on short final of a bad-weather, night precision approach in gusty, swinging crosswinds with rain and poor visibility.  It's one less thing to focus attention on at a very busy moment.

Just my opinion.  Your results may vary.

By the way, can anyone tell me why I have fewer instruments than the Champ and what these crappy black mirrors on the panel are for? 

[Danb]

I wish I knew Steven I’ve got em to

[Emmet]

Hi,

I would like to share my experience with customer support. I had mine ordered last month via UPS 2nd day. Long story short UPS messed it up. JR from customer support was outstanding in helping me with relocating the package and following up the case over a couple of days always monitoring and responding quickly to my mails. After many bad experiences with other companies I can‘t value his help and involvement enough!!

[ArtVandelay]

Hi,
I would like to share my experience with customer support. I had mine ordered last month via UPS 2nd day. Long story short UPS messed it up. JR from customer support was outstanding in helping me with relocating the package and following up the case over a couple of days always monitoring and responding quickly to my mails. After many bad experiences with other companies I can‘t value his help and involvement enough!!

What’s the lag time these days between ordering and receiving it?

[Microkit]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

What’s the lag time these days between ordering and receiving it?

The 100-B model is actually available but for a limited time (until we activate the new 200-C store Purchase / Upgrade offer), anyone buying the 100-B model now; will be marked for 200-C (for RG airplane) which includes the actual gear check unless mentioned in the order note that they don't have RG airplane and want the 100-B.  200-C expected to ship around (or before) first week of Sept.   

[David M20J]

1 hour ago, Microkit said:

The 100-B model is actually available but for a limited time (until we activate the new 200-C store Purchase / Upgrade offer), anyone buying the 100-B model now; will be marked for 200-C (for RG airplane) which includes the actual gear check unless mentioned in the order note that they don't have RG airplane and want the 100-B.  200-C expected to ship around (or before) first week of Sept.   

is this determined on the checkout page and we need to fill out the optional make and model section? or automatically get the -C, unless put in the notes.  just to clarify

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by David M20J

[Microkit]

11 hours ago, David M20J said:

is this determined on the checkout page and we need to fill out the optional make and model section? or automatically get the -C, unless put in the notes.  just to clarify

 

If optional Make/Model mentioned for a Mooney for example, it will be marked for for 200-C.   Helpful if put in order notes: Upgrade to 200-C. 

 

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, Microkit said:

If optional Make/Model mentioned for a Mooney for example, it will be marked for for 200-C.   Helpful if put in order notes: Upgrade to 200-C. 

 

I wish you had mentioned the order notes a few days ago.

[Microkit]

We updated a Mooney M20J located at our airport today to the 200-C model and took it out for a few approaches around the pattern.    

The 200-C model has three options (on the same wire) for gear detection, so it covers all scenarios.  On this model, with the annunciator panel in the photo, the “Gear Down HIGH” is the switched line.  When the Gear Limit SW is pressed, this wire gets power, lighting up the Gear Down light.   This pin already has two wires on it, we spliced into one of them and selected the option (in the Wi-Fi Gear Setup) to Detect Voltage on Gear Down.  

 On first approach; Gear Switch left up; @ 220 ft, Check Landing Gear started to announce, and is repeated every 4 seconds.    At around 100 feet after about 3 Check Landing Gear announcements, a Go-Around is performed, once the unit detects a positive rate up; it stops the alert.    

On 2nd approach; Gear Down as normal on downwind, normal circuit; 200 ft heard, then after 100ft heard, a rejected approach is performed; Gear Switch to Up; LHS immediately announces Check Landing Gear, it needs to see a positive rate of climb to shut up.    

3rd Approach; normal pattern and normal announcements all the way down.    

I think the above can serve as a Test Card for those upgrading or installing the 200-C to verify the Gear Warning System is operating correctly.    

We could have also performed a Gear up approach and once the CLG message is heard, then drop the gear and continue the approach.  On this Mooney, the gear comes down really fast (just a few seconds) but because we don't recommend putting the gear down @ 200 ft and still continuing the approach to land, it was not added to the plan.  It's certainly possible; but we think if someone already reached 200 ft AGL and the gear is still up, then it did not start as a stable approach at all and best to come around with the gear down before turning final.    

It's interesting that this M20J limit switch provides “power” when it's pressed (gear down).  The industry standard with limit switches is to “Switch to Ground” when the limit switch is pressed, this way any short in the long wiring to the limit switch is not shorting a power line.  

Other Mooney may be different, but thought to let those with matching annunciator panels how we wired it.    

The three options for the 200-C are:

- Detecting Power when it's UP; meaning if it sees a voltage on that line, the gear is still up.    

- Detecting Power when it's Down; if there is power on the wire, it means gear is down (this is the option we selected with this M20J).    

- Detecting GND on the line, when the wire is grounded, this means gear is down.

Regards

Nidal