well, I think I'm going to get some bladders.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: GeorgePerry

 your re-plowing ground that's been covered more than a few times.  Yep bladders do ad 30 lbs to you empty wt. but that's the only drawback. 

I'd suggest using the search funtion to see why the rest of your argument doesn't hold up.  It's all been said before.

Bottom line is what I stated earlier: Owners who've had O&N's for decades have not encountered any of these mythical issues. The people who poo-poo bladders are the people who don't have them. 

[Piloto]

An interesting fact is that no new airplane use bladders anymore. One of the bladders problems is maintenance logistics. Left and right wing bladders are different and each wing station is different. So for an MRO it would need to keep in stock a set of bladders different for each aircraft model in the fleet. With integral tanks (wet wing) you only need one can of sealant for all the planes in the fleet. Another issue is that on D checks or every five to ten years bladders need to be removed to check for corrosion in the area where they are installed. Bladders trap moisture within the cavity that leads to corrosion. Unlike wet tanks were corrosion (if any) would show as a fuel leak on bladders it may show until structural failure.

José 

[John Pleisse]

But here's an inescapable reality. You can pay $10k for a reseal, have 3 or 4 hard landings or load bearing taxi turns and be patching a new reseal in under a year.

 Bladders? Not so much.

[aerobat95]

I like the bladders.  54 Gallons is more than enough.  For me my personal limit is  3-3.5 hours....just plan accordingly and you will always have a good reserve.  If they do fail wouldnt it just start to fill the area that would normally have fuel if you didnt have a bladder.  If you encounter problems in flight...switch tanks...the likelyhood of both failing at the same time is probably not too great. 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: WardHolbrook

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: Piloto

An interesting fact is that no new airplane use bladders anymore. José 

[jetdriven]

Quote: gregwatts

Another reason not to fly LOP or run your tanks dry.......you can't measure your fuel while it is leaking! Thank you for making my points.

[GeorgePerry]

Byron it makes me happy to know that you and I can agree on this, even if we differ on other topics.  The Variety of well thought out cogent opinions is why I like this forum. 

[jetdriven]

Sure, I'm not an A&P but I have one that supervises me. I also have this knack for fixing things once.  Bladders are no more dangerous than your Dyson vacuum cleaner. Even if they "burst" they fill the wet wing space occipied by your former tanks..

Maybe I wil get myself a dental camera and some composite filling to repair my own tooth. I want it repaired to lasrt 19 years and counting.

I'm still waiting to hear complaints about bladders from real bladder owners, not people pontificating about hypothesis and theory about bladders.  Gravity is also just a theory after all, too.

Quote: allsmiles

Frankly, some things are best left to professionals. The factory didn't use bladders for some very good reasons. It is not the correct way to solve the problem. It's merely a half ass way to avoid or bypass a professional strip and or reseal. Tank strip and reseal is highly specialized and delicate work that demands certain skills and attention to detail. I would go to a professional who can do it right and be done with it.  It would be to your benefit to get a couple more opinions and references from professionals who actually specialize on this. Not a plain A&P. If you need a knee replacement you go to a knee replacement specialist and not a general practitioner right? Same logic should apply here imo.

Consider the fact that with sealed tanks a leak will start as a very small seap which gives ample time to evaluate and address. A bladder can burst or a connection can come loose spilling all the fuel at once.

[jetdriven]

good thing i don't fly a twin Mooney that sat for 2-3 years!

Quote: WardHolbrook

 your re-plowing ground that's been covered more than a few times.  Yep bladders do ad 30 lbs to you empty wt. but that's the only drawback. 

I'd suggest using the search funtion to see why the rest of your argument doesn't hold up.  It's all been said before.

Bottom line is what I stated earlier: Owners who've had O&N's for decades have not encountered any of these mythical issues. The people who poo-poo bladders are the people who don't have them. 

[jetdriven]

+5.  Thanks, George, thats why i lurk on her and post often.  Critical thinking and exploring ideas is the best way to seek the truth..

Quote: GeorgePerry

Byron it makes me happy to know that you and I can agree on this, even if we differ on other topics.  The Variety of well thought out cogent opinions is why I like this forum. 

[TonyPynes]

This wasn't me.....

[docket]

Quote: AustinPynes

I tried a patch job with the best -- Don Maxwell.  It worked great for a year.  We tried again and that patch job worked for another year.  Don gave me good advice and said go somewhere and get it resealed.  I took the plane to Wilmar and resealed.  It seems like the problem is totally solved.  

[richardheitzman]

I love this discussion. Good points on both sides. My point is, Mooney went to a large amount of trouble to make the wing a "wet wing" and for the "vintage" aircraft out there that the potting material is breaking down, due to age, hard landings, etc, it is time to reseal. In another 20 to 30 years, the aircraft will be 60-70 years old, so really what the heck are you discussing? I agree a patch job is a band aid on a bone deep cut, so bite the bullet and go up and see Paul Beck and have him strip and reseal your tanks. You should be thankful that someone has taken the time to be a specialist in resealing tanks. I freaking HATE working in fuel tanks. I mean HATE IT WITH A PASSION. So Paul, my hat is off to you. Fuel Bladders? Not for me, (when I finally buy one, lol). BUT that is just my opinion. Those who have bladders like them and that is cool. There are many modifications over the years to the Mooney. So no rock throwing from me.

[DaV8or]

A small advantage to the strip and reseal- If you like the mechanical wing mounted fuel gauges, you can only do this with wet wings, not bladders. A minor feature, but nobody has pointed it out and if you're on the fence, it might tip you one way or the other... or just muddy the waters.

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

 

[lahso]

Quote: rbridges

The weep in my right wing is getting worse.  I've actually got some bleed through the wing walk by the passenger door.  I'm also noticing some blue in the left wing.   I originally planned to have a strip/reseal, but the more I think about it, I may go with the bladders.  I'm already at a paltry 590lbs useable load with full fuel.  I guess another 30lbs won't make a difference b/c I'll probably never have rear passengers.

I spoke with someone at Cole Aviation in Rome, GA.  He really turned me off of a patch job.  He said it's a losing battle, and at $1K/attempt, I want something a little more dependable.

Anyone near north GA have much experience with these guys?

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: lahso

Keep us updated (or send a PM), as I'd like to hear what the final verdict is.

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

People with your attitude scare me! You sound like the jack of all trades and master of none! Perhaps you feel that you supervised by your A&P can strip and seal your tanks. I on the other hand prefer to leave things such as this to the professionals. Their knowledge and expertise is alot deeper and broader than mine! My time is better spent on what I do best!

What's the discussion here? Strip and seal your tanks by a professional specializing in this type of work and you are set for a long long time. Also I don't believe for a minute that landings cause the tanks to leak.  Leaking imo is precipitated primarily by frequently allowing the seal to dry out when tanks are not filled.  Also by parking out in the sun and allowing the flat wing surface to get very hot. Proper care by filling tanks frequently and avoiding temperature extremes goes a long way in preventing leaks. Also filling tanks minimizes condensation or water in the fuel. It all goes back to applying proper preventive maintenance.

[PTK]

Quote: Shadrach

People with your attitude scare me! You sound like the jack of all trades and master of none! Perhaps you feel that you supervised by your A&P can strip and seal your tanks. I on the other hand prefer to leave things such as this to the professionals. Their knowledge and expertise is alot deeper and broader than mine! My time is better spent on what I do best!

What's the discussion here? Strip and seal your tanks by a professional specializing in this type of work and you are set for a long long time. Also I don't believe for a minute that landings cause the tanks to leak.  Leaking imo is precipitated primarily by frequently allowing the seal to dry out when tanks are not filled.  Also by parking out in the sun and allowing the flat wing surface to get very hot. Proper care by filling tanks frequently and avoiding temperature extremes goes a long way in preventing leaks. Also filling tanks minimizes condensation or water in the fuel. It all goes back to applying proper preventive maintenance.

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

[jetdriven]

Im not suggesting I would fix a leaky wet ting tank. I have bladders in my machine.   But however, if I did have minor wet wing leaks, I would likely repair it myself. it is tedious PITA work, but not overly techincal, its also in the service manual.  The result of shoddy work, is the same leak it had when it went into the shop. 

I will also second Ross in my discovering many things about our aircraft after a 5000$ annual and a 2000$ prebuy.  So far, and the list keeps growing, has been:

• 
  
• Loose alternator nut on the newly installed alternator (500$ labor, weight and balanced not updated) which arced and burned the output post off in flight. This resulted in flying the aircraft back from AR to Houston with no electrical system.
  
• Pilot seat stop cotter pins not re-installed which resulted in pilot seat off tracks at delivery. The seatbelts transfer load to the seat to the track. 
  
• Both aileron links in the wings had loose jam nuts after we paid same expert to re-rig ailerons.
  
• Static line disconnected from port inside tailcone. Aircraft had flown less than 10 hours since a fresh static system cert. How do you test the static system with a disconnected port?  You fake it.
  
• Nose door rigged where it now hits the nose gear truss when turned to stops.
  
• cowl flap link broken and put together where it fails on the first flight.
  
• Ram air deactivated, cable cut off at firewall and not sealed. Not removed and plugged per Mooney SI M20-93.
  
• Elevator trim jacksrew not inspected or lubricated in the previous 14 years.
  

OK,  end rant.

 

I am not a certified A&P mechanic.  However, due to some recent questioning in my ability or process, I will explain it further. I have all the tools, the manuals, and two 30-year career A&P IA's who are willing to consult me (in their shop) and supervise the work I do. I pay them well for this and do not question their judgment. This is all legal per the rules and results in much less maintenance induced failures, effective preventative maintenance, and the aircraft having nearly 100% dispatch reliability for the first year. 

I read lots of stories about owners returning the the shop for multiple attempts to fix the same problem with their aircraft. This results in spending thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars replacing perfectly good parts until the offending item is uncovered.  All under the guise of  "I put my family in this airplane, I want it to be safe and that requires large amounts of money". This a nice slogan to enrich owners of repair stations.  Or, in the case of autopilots and engines, good money wasted and it never gets repaired.  I prefer to be an involved owner who is willing to do all of the troubleshooting and most of the repairs.  We install used parts where it makes sense and run non critical items to failure.

[jetdriven]

Excellent point, Dave.

Quote: DaV8or

A small advantage to the strip and reseal- If you like the mechanical wing mounted fuel gauges, you can only do this with wet wings, not bladders. A minor feature, but nobody has pointed it out and if you're on the fence, it might tip you one way or the other... or just muddy the waters.

[scottfromiowa]

Thanks George and Jim'r and others.  This is a tough one for me.  I live a couple of hours flight from Wilmer and have seeping tanks (primarily when full).  I am on the fence so much on this that my b@%%$ ache.  Why can't one solution be 1/2 the cost of the other to make my decision easy, sigh...

I like that warranty is solid for both.  That is a BIG plus either way you go.  I will need to do this before plane is painted some day...same with side-glass.  I don't look forward to having either done.

[jetdriven]

Scott, to make the pain easier, you can replace the side windows as FAR 43 approved owner maintenance. While the interior plastic is out, you casn repair and paint that.