Anybody with Surefly installation experience

[kmyfm20s]

I have done the search and read what’s available but I can only interpolate some of the information to my plane and installation. I’m planning on replacing my left mag with a SureFly electronic ignition. The left mag is the more difficult to replace and my right mag runs the smoothest of the 2 so that made the decision easy. Having 3 mag failures in various planes and a recent defective mag that caused all kinds of expensive trouble shooting and unnecessary parts replacement for my engine monitor, I’m hoping this is a good solution and not just going to create new problems. I’m also looking forward to the potential high altitude performance gains with the variable timing(mixed reviews on this), smoother LOP operation(positive reviews), no 500 hr inspection and the 2 lbs weight savings.

One concern is that people with 24V systems have been having more problems with the surefly. Most seem to be related to other airframes installations and not running the power directly to the battery. With the Mooney that means a long wire run through the cabin. I was wondering if anyone is currently running the surefly on a long body(24v)has had any problems with the unit and it’s power source? From what I understand the system reset itself if there is a slight disruption in the power supply and this seems to be less of a problem with the 12V applications. The mixed reviews with the variable timing seems to be related to the Improper installation of the power source on both the 12 and 24V systems and improper setting of the initial timing with the hardware. 

Another concern Is the RPM pickup with the EI MVP-50. It looks like it reads RPM with 2 channels, 1 channel going to each mag connecting to the P-lead with an isolator and picking up the pulses. With the surefly the EI installation manual says it doesn’t need the isolator since the output is not such a high voltage that will damage the MVP, I just wanted to see if anyone has experience with this and if the hook up was as simple as removing the isolator? I will call both companies on Monday to verify this but wanted to start my install this weekend. 
 

Thank you

Edited September 5, 2020 by kmyfm20s

[Danb]

Kmfym20s I’ll give a pirep on the long body Mooney just picked up my Bravo from annual and had the surefly installed, my limited flight was normal, when I got back to the hanger I waited awhile and did a hot start, the plane started beautiful as if it was the first start of the day. I’m doing a six hour trip on Monday and will have a chance to monitor my temps, I monitor them religiously so I have a good base for comparison 

[carusoam]

My memory doesn’t always serve me very well... but, when it comes to IO550s and supporting technology...

I have a tendency to invite @StevenL757 to join the conversation... (Surefly discussion)

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

3 hours ago, Danb said:

Kmfym20s I’ll give a pirep on the long body Mooney just picked up my Bravo from annual and had the surefly installed, my limited flight was normal, when I got back to the hanger I waited awhile and did a hot start, the plane started beautiful as if it was the first start of the day. I’m doing a six hour trip on Monday and will have a chance to monitor my temps, I monitor them religiously so I have a good base for comparison 

Looking forward to hear how your trip goes! Do you know how they wired your power? Direct to battery or master relay? 

Edited September 5, 2020 by kmyfm20s

[Danb]

Not sure I think direct to battery with inline fuse 

[kmyfm20s]

Just now, Danb said:

Not sure I think direct to battery with inline fuse 

That is what I believe to be the best method of the 2 option in the installation manual.

[Niko182]

Just now, kmyfm20s said:

That is what I believe to be the best method of the 2 option in the installation manual.

Can you connect it to the relay between bat 1 and 2. Would be great if a battery failed you could just switch the power to the second one.

[kmyfm20s]

Just now, Niko182 said:

Can you connect it to the relay between bat 1 and 2. Would be great if a battery failed you could just switch the power to the second one.

That’s what I was thinking would be nice also but it has to be on the hot side of the master relay, so you basically have to pick a battery. From my searches this is where people have run into abnormal behavior with their SureFly’s. I don’t know the proper term but basically any little disruption with the power(spike,  drop, surge) causes the Surefly to misfire or reset. This apparently happens mostly on the 24V applications. 

[Niko182]

Just now, kmyfm20s said:

That’s what I was thinking would be nice also but it has to be on the hot side of the master relay, so you basically have to pick a battery. From my searches this is where people have run into abnormal behavior with their SureFly’s. I don’t know the proper term but basically any little disruption with the power(spike,  drop, surge) causes the Surefly to misfire or reset. This apparently happens mostly on the 24V applications. 

I think the reality is gonna be that im gonna go with the electro air. The reality is that it would probably be around 7k instead of 2.5 to 3k, but the electroair seems to be a lot more sophisticated.

The review of it on the a36 with a TN520 on beechtalk really convinced me.

[kmyfm20s]

Just now, Niko182 said:

I think the reality is gonna be that im gonna go with the electro air. The reality is that it would probably be around 7k instead of 2.5 to 3k, but the electroair seems to be a lot more sophisticated.

The review of it on the a36 with a TN520 on beechtalk really convinced me.

I was looking hard at the Electro Air. They have had a slightly smoother roll out and have been out longer but after reading enough I’m convinced that the SureFly is the more sophisticated system now the the advanced timing is allowed. That is just my opinion and I think both systems are a huge improvement. I have been reading a lot and basically the higher voltage claim of EA over SF has no merit since they both use the same spark plugs and can jump the same gap distance. There is a good thread about the timing between the 2 Systems and it shows how the advance tends to be more aggressive where you want it to be and more conservative where you want it to be with the SF. At minimum I believe they are equal in performance. The EA is heavier, bulkier, a much more complex installation and more expensive. For me even if it’s performance is Slightly better its not worth it. I will report my results so you can make your decision. FYI the Lycoming E-mag is just a private labeled SF with its own power source. I’m sure they put their own power source to prevent the Installation issues with the power source that I’m asking about. 

[kmyfm20s]

Great thread comparing the 2. Gets good around page 17 with the timing, spark plug gap and performance of the 2 but it’s all worth a read.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=138654&start=240

[Danb]

On 9/5/2020 at 2:43 PM, Danb said:

Kmfym20s I’ll give a pirep on the long body Mooney just picked up my Bravo from annual and had the surefly installed, my limited flight was normal, when I got back to the hanger I waited awhile and did a hot start, the plane started beautiful as if it was the first start of the day. I’m doing a six hour trip on Monday and will have a chance to monitor my temps, I monitor them religiously so I have a good base for comparison 

First real flight with the surefly

there was no increase in temps, highest cht was 376 lowest 355 tit 1595 as usual all egt’s we’re same. My fuel flow may have been a little lower, 18.3 generally 18.8, since I’m bored on long flights I chart my fuel flows and temps every 30 minutes therefore I have a solid set of numbers for comparison, I didn’t like the little bump during mag check as told to expect it. Similar to Erik my temps were not elevated. I assume it’s due to the fixed timing. Starts are quick and easy.

 

 

[FloridaMan]

On the Rockets (TSIO520), everyone so far seems to have done the right mag. I tried the left; there wasn't enough room to fit the mag in the left and time it with the fuel flow transducer located just above the mag so I had to order the harness for the right side. The wire terminals are located on the "bottom" of the surefly when it's oriented for the left mag and will be more difficult to attach. 

[Niko182]

Any updates on performance?

[kmyfm20s]

I actually got it installed Friday a week ago but didn’t wrap it up until today. The most frustrating part of the job was finding the correct resistor for the RPM pickup for the EI MVP-50 off the P-lead. New territory for both EI and Surefly. It took a lot of trial and error to get to the correct size resistor plus waiting to get the different sizes delivered took a while. I now need to get it inspected and get the log book entry to go fly it. That would have happened this Monday but I’m leaving for a week to Colorado so that won’t happen until next week now. So far nothing earth shattering to report with the few run ups I did. My ignition system was in pretty good shape and ran smooth to begin with. I’m looking forward to flying it and seeing how the advanced timing performs. I will add some photos and parts used for future installers after I get a couple flights in.

[kmyfm20s]

I thought I would post an update, still not flying yet! My two initial concerns have been the biggest holdups on this install. The 24 volt power supply and the RPM pickup for the EI MVP-50. The install itself was easy. Find TDC cylinder #1, set the internal timing of the E-mag, install and confirm timing. I opted to run a straight power line through the cabin and connect directly to battery number 2. I picked battery 2 because it has less connected to it. 
The RPM pickup for the EI MVP-50 requires a resistor. This was a frustrating and tedious process. When I called SureFly they said around 18K should be about right and when I talked to EI they said around 4K or less should be about right. This took a week of locating, ordering with trial and error until I got the correct one. To save someone a lot of time that is installing a SureFly to a EI product you need between a 16K-20K 1/2 watt resistor. You can buy a variety pack on amazon and you can put them in series if needed. They either work or they don’t so you can’t tell when your getting close. 
The 24 volt installs of the SureFly’s have been seeing more bugs with the installation. They have been seeing more transients in the power supply that cause the SureFly to constantly reset itself. When it resets it behaves exactly like a failed mag and the engine runs rough and sporadically. This is because it basically shutting off and on. In reading the forums this seemed to happen when people connected to an improper power supply or didn’t connect directly to the battery. I didn’t discover this with mine until I was with the mechanic ready for the sign off this Monday. After I installed the SureFly part of the post install test was to basically start the engine, shut off everything, run it up to 1800 rpm and see if it still run on the SureFly alone. I did and it ran really smooth and I was happy. The difference was when I ran it up last time with the mechanic I had everything on including the alternator field switch and it ran crappy!  I guess on every other run up I had never bothered to turn the alternator on after I had turned it off and it was introducing the transients into the power line. The other thing I noticed is that I always it turned off the alternator at low power before the run up. I mentioned in some other post is that it wasn’t a huge transformation from my magneto but at low RPM the transients are there but not as pronounced and it ran just like a magneto. With the alternator field switch off it ran noticeably smoother at low and high RPM’s! A call to SureFly and they just got FAA approval for an in line power conditioner which eliminates these transients in the power supply. Looking forward to receiving it and installing tomorrow. If it does what its supposed to the SureFly will be a nice addition. 
So far a 3 week off, one week for resistor, a week Elk hunting and another week for a power conditioner. After this 3 week process I’m looking forward to flying this weekend! I will report back with my experience. 

[kmyfm20s]

Update. With the new SureFly power conditioner the plane flies flawlessly. Only one test flight so not a lot of data but everything seems to have a little improvement. Definitely nothing went backwards with exception of slightly higher CHT’s. Im thinking the CHT’s maybe 10-15 degrees hotter but this is after the advanced timing kicks in. More flight time will be needed to get the exact increases, it was a really hot day on the flight. Overall very smooth, LOP is noticeably smoother, FF has decreased a little, speed may have had a little bump but maybe wishful thinking. No weight savings with the new added power conditioner.
Future areas for improvement will be to open up the spark plug gaps to get a larger spark on the SF plugs. It will generate spark up to .038 of gap. Other areas of discussion are the timing. The engine manual says 22 degrees +/- 2 degrees. The SF has 24 degrees as an option but will investigate the regs on 24. I am currently set at 22 as per the engine data plate and as spelled out in the instruction.

Your passengers will definitely know if you do an in air mag check. When switching from the mag to the SF it shuts off for a split second. When going from both mags to the SF you do not feel a mag drop but it does register a 20 to 30 RPM drop.

As mentioned in my original post the RPM pickup and power supply where may main concerns about the install and did end up causing the longest delays and frustration with the install. Hopefully this will save someone some time.

I connected directly to #2 battery and follow the main battery cable through the cabin into the engine compartment. The new power conditioner has 2 components which looks like a voltage step down transformer and a capacitor. The planes that have 12V systems don’t have these problems that the planes with the 24V systems have been having. I’m assuming the PC17V does just that and takes the 24V to 17V.  I added some pictures below.
 

 

The transformer was mounted on the cooling side of the baffling behind cylinder #1. It receives power directly from battery #2 and then the positive and negative connect directly to the SF terminals.

Mounted the capacitor directly opposite of the transformer. The positive and negative run directly to the SF terminals.

 

 

This is what the resistors look like for the RPM pickup. This goes inline from the P-lead pickup on the SF to the EDC of the EI MVP-50.

 

 

The SF requires a slick ignition harness. Since I opted for the screw in leads I numbered them so I didn’t screw things up:)

 

 

The manifold pickup. Found this nice little port on the intake for #1.

 

[carusoam]

Great details K!

Thanks for sharing them!

Have you considered that funky ignition switch that has the independent mag switches on it..?  (R mag, L mag, and push button start)

This way you don’t have to sweep through L on the way to R (?), with the normal rotary switch...
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, not sure... I may have mentioned this aimlessly a few times... 

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

I've got about 8 hours on the Surefly replacing the left Slick on my IO-360-A3B6 on my 28V M20J. I was having the same intermittent roughness. It usually happened intermittently in short bursts after about a half hour of flight but it was pretty random. It goes away if I turn off the alternator. I discussed this with Jason Hutchison (Surefly GM). Jason has done most of the field investigation on this issue. A common cause is a poor electrical connection somewhere in the power circuit to Surefly. This was not my problem. The other cause can be transient spikes on the power line to the Surefly SIM. The SIM has a lightening protection circuit that shuts the SIM down if the voltage on the power line exceeds about 38 volts. Aircraft power buses frequently have voltage spikes and on 14V systems they never seem to get high enough to shut down the SIM, but on 28V systems sometimes they do. Every time a spike exceeds the lightening protection threshold the SIM shuts down and reboots. If you get a burst of spikes, you get a few seconds of rough running. The current theory is that as the battery charges its internal resistance increases and it becomes less of a filter on the aircraft electrical system which is why it often only occurs later in the flight. Jason tried various filters, but found that the filters had to be tailored to each installation. Since he wanted a universal solution, they came up with the DC/DC converter that isolates the SIM power from the aircraft bus and also lowers the voltage to the SIM. The additional capacitor is because they still saw a little noise at the SIM input in one case and wanted to be dead sure that it was filtered out. Great to hear that it works well -- I haven't installed mine yet.

Skip

[John Mininger]

Has anyone installed a SureFly SIM on a IO360-A3B6 and changed the timing from 20 degrees BTDC to 25 BTDC? Have you seen any performance differences?

[flyingchump]

I just got the bill for the insulation of a surefly and almost fell off my chair.  At the moment, I'm doubting the value/claims of Surefly. 

Prior to today everyone has said "its easy to install" or "just a couple of hours".  Well a "couple of hours" is apparently 17.1 hours! At almost $100/hr that's $1700 just for the labor.  Its not the $ that bothers me (well is it a bit), its the difference in expectations.  I don't feel like the shop is ripping me off, they had issues installing this thing... On a different plane maybe its faster/easier to install but on my E...  No.  

So at $1425 for the surefly, $1,700 for the labor, and $500 for half an ignition harness I'm totaling roughly $3,650. 

Hindsight is 20/20 and had I known that it was going to cost $3600+ total, I might have made a different choice.  I have other maintenance issues to correct and this one was not necessary.  Why the hell didn't I just have the old mag IRAN'd for $500?  The plane was running just fine and I could have bought a lot of fuel for 3K saved. 

For others considering a surefly...  If you can install a surefly yourself or with the help of an A&P friend, go for it.  The value of having a 2000+ TBO is easy to justify the cost.  But having a shop install it can rack up the labor and tip the scales of value.  

And before anyone says something like "if you cant pay for it, don't fly" just know that comments like that are not helpful.  I can pay the bill but the value of the "upgrade" diminishes with elevating costs.  

I'm going to pick up the plane tomorrow and if the surefly doesn't live up to its performance expectations, I'm probably going to regret it for a while.  I'll report back after I fly for a few hours.

[kortopates]

I just got the bill for the insulation of a surefly and almost fell off my chair.  At the moment, I'm doubting the value/claims of Surefly. 
Prior to today everyone has said "its easy to install" or "just a couple of hours".  Well a "couple of hours" is apparently 17.1 hours! At almost $100/hr that's $1700 just for the labor.  Its not the $ that bothers me (well is it a bit), its the difference in expectations.  I don't feel like the shop is ripping me off, they had issues installing this thing... On a different plane maybe its faster/easier to install but on my E...  No.  
So at $1425 for the surefly, $1,700 for the labor, and $500 for half an ignition harness I'm totaling roughly $3,650. 
Hindsight is 20/20 and had I known that it was going to cost $3600+ total, I might have made a different choice.  I have other maintenance issues to correct and this one was not necessary.  Why the hell didn't I just have the old mag IRAN'd for $500?  The plane was running just fine and I could have bought a lot of fuel for 3K saved. 
For others considering a surefly...  If you can install a surefly yourself or with the help of an A&P friend, go for it.  The value of having a 2000+ TBO is easy to justify the cost.  But having a shop install it can rack up the labor and tip the scales of value.  
And before anyone says something like "if you cant pay for it, don't fly" just know that comments like that are not helpful.  I can pay the bill but the value of the "upgrade" diminishes with elevating costs.  
I'm going to pick up the plane tomorrow and if the surefly doesn't live up to its performance expectations, I'm probably going to regret it for a while.  I'll report back after I fly for a few hours.

Is your battery in the back by chance or up by the engine. If the former, it’s quite a job to pull a new wire from battery through interior and firewall to power surefly! But realistically, you can barely do anything in 1-2 hrs, perhaps remove and re-install mags during annual but not installing a new ignition system and new wires to plugs. Then the STC 337 paperwork ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Culver LFA]

2 hours ago, flyingchump said:

I just got the bill for the insulation of a surefly and almost fell off my chair.  At the moment, I'm doubting the value/claims of Surefly. 

Prior to today everyone has said "its easy to install" or "just a couple of hours".  Well a "couple of hours" is apparently 17.1 hours! At almost $100/hr that's $1700 just for the labor.  Its not the $ that bothers me (well is it a bit), its the difference in expectations.  I don't feel like the shop is ripping me off, they had issues installing this thing... On a different plane maybe its faster/easier to install but on my E...  No.  

So at $1425 for the surefly, $1,700 for the labor, and $500 for half an ignition harness I'm totaling roughly $3,650. 

Hindsight is 20/20 and had I known that it was going to cost $3600+ total, I might have made a different choice.  I have other maintenance issues to correct and this one was not necessary.  Why the hell didn't I just have the old mag IRAN'd for $500?  The plane was running just fine and I could have bought a lot of fuel for 3K saved. 

For others considering a surefly...  If you can install a surefly yourself or with the help of an A&P friend, go for it.  The value of having a 2000+ TBO is easy to justify the cost.  But having a shop install it can rack up the labor and tip the scales of value.  

And before anyone says something like "if you cant pay for it, don't fly" just know that comments like that are not helpful.  I can pay the bill but the value of the "upgrade" diminishes with elevating costs.  

I'm going to pick up the plane tomorrow and if the surefly doesn't live up to its performance expectations, I'm probably going to regret it for a while.  I'll report back after I fly for a few hours.

I almost fell out of my chair reading this...that’s a lot of labor hours for a Surefly install.  Do you still have the access panels in front of the windscreen or no? Something must be more difficult to access on your E than my F.

My install was started and finished in a day (not sure exactly how many hours as I wasn’t recording that) with installation of the surefly, running power wire to the battery (rear mounted), fabrication of a new “p-lead”, rewiring the ignition switch, removal of the shower of sparks and the unused associated wiring. 
Hopefully you don’t get the momentary ignition cutout after “L” ignition check back to “Both”, I think the new ones have different software?  That’s the only thing I’m not impressed with so far with Surefly as it makes my wife raise an eyebrow every time I do it.

[flyingchump]

42 minutes ago, Culver LFA said:

I almost fell out of my chair reading this...that’s a lot of labor hours for a Surefly install.  Do you still have the access panels in front of the windscreen or no? Something must be more difficult to access on your E than my F.

My install was started and finished in a day (not sure exactly how many hours as I wasn’t recording that) with installation of the surefly, running power wire to the battery (rear mounted), fabrication of a new “p-lead”, rewiring the ignition switch, removal of the shower of sparks and the unused associated wiring. 
Hopefully you don’t get the momentary ignition cutout after “L” ignition check back to “Both”, I think the new ones have different software?  That’s the only thing I’m not impressed with so far with Surefly as it makes my wife raise an eyebrow every time I do it.

I have access to the panels in front of the wind screen although I don't think they were used for access.  I suppose is depends on the year of your F.  I'm not an expert on the changes per year vs model.  I can tell you my 1966 E has an IO-360-a1a, stock windshield, Surefly is the left mag, the battery is behind the back seat.  They couldn't "time" the mags together and had to call surefly for help.  Surefly sent them out a different gear that was 1/2 tooth off from the original.  This allowed the surefly a few more degrees to "time" currently with the standard right mag.  I've heard about the momentary cut out and I'm not sure if mine has that "feature".  I'll find out tomorrow.  This surefly better be worth it!

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, flyingchump said:

I have access to the panels in front of the wind screen although I don't think they were used for access.  I suppose is depends on the year of your F.  I'm not an expert on the changes per year vs model.  I can tell you my 1966 E has an IO-360-a1a, stock windshield, Surefly is the left mag, the battery is behind the back seat.  They couldn't "time" the mags together and had to call surefly for help.  Surefly sent them out a different gear that was 1/2 tooth off from the original.  This allowed the surefly a few more degrees to "time" currently with the standard right mag.  I've heard about the momentary cut out and I'm not sure if mine has that "feature".  I'll find out tomorrow.  This surefly better be worth it!

Sorry to hear that happened.  As @kortopates said, taking out the interior and running a power wire was the hardest part.  I did the interior removal and installation.  My mechanic did the rest.  About 3 hours billed, but I didn’t need that extra gear or have any issues.  Also, my spark plug wires were already off for a cylinder replacement.  So maybe 17 seems high but not out of the question?

SF is nice at times but probably don’t expect $3700 of improved performance!