Here we go again...

[StevenL757]

So...all finished, save for the autopilot which is actually running very well right now (knock on wood).  It will be the last thing I likely do to upgrade the aircraft.  Exact AP model yet to be determined.  One small trim issue during validation and testing, but overall, a clean installation.  I absolutely love it...Islip Avionics scored another huge win.  They really do phenomenal work.

Steve

[Davidv]

On 6/16/2020 at 2:07 PM, StevenL757 said:

Yeah, good point.  I've been tossing the autopilot upgrade question and options around for a few years now.  Decided to hold off for now, as I can't reconcile a few things with each of the options I've look at (KFC230 and the GFC500).  As I've always maintained, if the GFC600 were an option, I'd have written the check already.  My shop is prepared to buy back the GCU485 and give me the best pricing and installation flexibility if I decide to go with the GFC500 in the short-to-medium timeframe, but I'm still holding onto what's probably a very thin string in hopes they'll eventually put the Ovation on the "approved" list for the -600.

Although my KFC150 is a great autopilot, it won't last forever, so I'm probably postponing the inevitable.

Out of curiosity, what’s the incremental benefit on the 600 vs 500?

P.S. Amazing finished product!!!!!

Edited July 17, 2020 by Davidv

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

Out of curiosity, what’s the incremental benefit on the 600 vs 500?

P.S. Amazing finished product!!!!!

Thanks...been a tough decision to spend the $$.  Although I was very happy with the G500 (telling myself only a year ago that I'd "never go for the Txi")...it made sense given the added features, improved speed, crisper display, and ease of use among other things.

As far as the GFC600 adds, these are what I know off the top of my head...I'm sure there are more.

• Has bigger servos (GSA87) built and sealed better to withstand harsher conditions
• Has built in AHRS (in case my GRS77 fails...the AP continues functioning)
• No need to buy / no dependency on a G5 for the AP to derive attitude information.  I can keep my L3 ESI500 Genesis, which is a far superior instrument anyway

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Davidv said:

Out of curiosity, what’s the incremental benefit on the 600 vs 500?

P.S. Amazing finished product!!!!!

The GFC 600 has a built in AHARS, no requirement for GPS assisting for ILS/LOC/VOR approaches, control wheel steering, automatic "transition to Approach" from VNAV, more robust servos, and interfaces with more products.  Having said that and having had the GFC 500 for over a year now, it is hands down the best autopilot I have flown, including those in the older Citation.  Knock on wood, I've never had an issue with being unable to fly an ILS due to a lack of GPS coverage, or surprisingly, the need for CWS.

The likelihood of Garmin certifying the GFC 600 for the Mooney is next to ZERO. (As told by a Garmin Rep a few years ago.)

Steve, your panel looks great!  Put in the GFC 500 now.  You'll be glad you did.  Of course, you will also need to switch out your ESI 500 for either the GI 275 or G5.

[donkaye]

9 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I can keep my L3 ESI500 Genesis, which is a far superior instrument anyway

Having had the ESI 500, I'll have to disagree on the utility of the ESI 500 over the G5.  It has so much more information, (standard rate turn icons, FD, density altitude display on the ground, OAT and TAS displayed at the same time, navigation source displayed, ESP icons for the GFC 500, and sync'd baro setting with the G500 TXi).  It doesn't have SVT, which I had on the ESI 500, but didn't find very useful.  With the GI 275 in place for the G5 for the GFC 500, it does have SVT.

[Davidv]

12 minutes ago, donkaye said:

The GFC 600 has a built in AHARS, no requirement for GPS assisting for ILS/LOC/VOR approaches, control wheel steering, automatic "transition to Approach" from VNAV, more robust servos, and interfaces with more products.  Having said that and having had the GFC 500 for over a year now, it is hands down the best autopilot I have flown, including those in the older Citation.  Knock on wood, I've never had an issue with being unable to fly an ILS due to a lack of GPS coverage, or surprisingly, the need for CWS.

The likelihood of Garmin certifying the GFC 600 for the Mooney is next to ZERO. (AS told by a Garmin Rep a few years ago.

Steve, your panel looks great!  Put in the GFC 500 now.  You'll be glad you did.  Of course, you will also need to switch out your ESI 500 for either the GI 275 or G5.

Thanks @donkaye, I've been strongly considering it.  My KAP150 seems to "hunt" just ever so slightly up and down in cruise to where I see my IAS moving just a bit (3-4 knots).  I assume you don't see this with the GFC500 (and maybe you didn't before with your king?).

[Davidv]

26 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Thanks...been a tough decision to spend the $$.  Although I was very happy with the G500 (telling myself only a year ago that I'd "never go for the Txi")...it made sense given the added features, improved speed, crisper display, and ease of use among other things.

As far as the GFC600 adds, these are what I know off the top of my head...I'm sure there are more.

• Has bigger servos (GSA87) built and sealed better to withstand harsher conditions
• Has built in AHRS (in case my GRS77 fails...the AP continues functioning)
• No need to buy / no dependency on a G5 for the AP to derive attitude information.  I can keep my L3 ESI500 Genesis, which is a far superior instrument anyway

Thanks Steven, nice to know that you at least get a lot more for the additional cost!  In my case I think the GFC500 will be a big upgrade over my King 150...

[donkaye]

45 minutes ago, Davidv said:

Thanks @donkaye, I've been strongly considering it.  My KAP150 seems to "hunt" just ever so slightly up and down in cruise to where I see my IAS moving just a bit (3-4 knots).  I assume you don't see this with the GFC500 (and maybe you didn't before with your king?).

I spent over $6,000 with both Autopilot Central in Tulsa and LAC in San Jose trying to get rid of "wing rock" after the interface of the KFC 150 to the G500.  Never did fully get rid of it.  After an installation issue causing oscillation in pitch and finding that the elevator and yoke needed to be well lubricated, the GFC 500 has flown on rails in all attitudes whether level flight, turns, or on approach. 

[Davidv]

21 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I spent over $6,000 with both Autopilot Central in Tulsa and LAC in San Jose trying to get rid of "wing rock" after the interface of the KFC 150 to the G500.  Never did fully get rid of it.  After an installation issue causing oscillation in pitch and finding that the elevator and yoke needed to be well lubricated, the GFC 500 has flown on rails in all attitudes whether level flight.turns  or on approach. 

Great, I'm glad you got your approach bugs worked out too...

[donkaye]

49 minutes ago, Davidv said:

Thanks Steven, nice to know that you at least get a lot more for the additional cost!  In my case I think the GFC500 will be a big upgrade over my King 150...

My net cost for the GFC 500 with all four servos after sale of the ESI 500 and KFC 150 parts was about $19,000, surprisingly about the same cost as the KFC 150 was nearly 30 years ago (as shown on the purchase invoice for the airplane from Mooney), but with a whole lot more functionality.

[StevenL757]

Just now, donkaye said:

The GFC 600 has a built in AHARS, no requirement for GPS assisting for ILS/LOC/VOR approaches, control wheel steering, automatic "transition to Approach" from VNAV, more robust servos, and interfaces with more products.  Having said that and having had the GFC 500 for over a year now, it is hands down the best autopilot I have flown, including those in the older Citation.  Knock on wood, I've never had an issue with being unable to fly an ILS due to a lack of GPS coverage, or surprisingly, the need for CWS.

The likelihood of Garmin certifying the GFC 600 for the Mooney is next to ZERO. (AS told by a Garmin Rep a few years ago.

Steve, your panel looks great!  Put in the GFC 500 now.  You'll be glad you did.  Of course, you will also need to switch out your ESI 500 for either the GI 275 or G5.

Thanks much.  The GFC500 with YD was almost twice as much as the quote I got for the KFC230, so I'm holding off "for now".  Of course, I said this about the Txi and 650/750xi too...

So you think the GFC500 tops the Sperry SPZ-500?  :-)  I've flown with the Sperry in the 425 Conquest 1 for awhile now, and it's pretty rock-solid.  I will, however, likely go the Garmin route.

[donkaye]

36 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Thanks much.  The GFC500 with YD was almost twice as much as the quote I got for the KFC230, so I'm holding off "for now".  Of course, I said this about the Txi and 650/750xi too...

So you think the GFC500 tops the Sperry SPZ-500?  :-)  I've flown with the Sperry in the 425 Conquest 1 for awhile now, and it's pretty rock-solid.  I will, however, likely go the Garmin route.

Let's say the GFC 500 costs even $9,000 more than the KFC 230.  You're getting light weight new brushless servos for the difference.  The  230 uses the same 20-30 year old ones used with the KFC 150.  They are heavy and very costly to repair.   In fact you can buy 2 Garmin GSA 28 brushless servos for the cost to repair one BK servo.  You get what you pay for.  In fact much more with the Garmin GFC 500.

[StevenL757]

Just now, donkaye said:

Let's say the GFC 500 costs even $9,000 more than the KFC 230.  You're getting light weight new brushless servos for the difference.  The  230 uses the same 20-30 year old ones used with the KFC 150.  They are heavy and very costly to repair.   In fact you can buy 2 Garmin GSA 28 brushless servos for the cost to repair one BK servo.  You get what you pay for.  In fact much more with the Garmin GFC 500.

Yeah, I understand and can't argue with the logic there.  To fully get on-board with the -500, I'll have to get past - in my head - the GPS limitation that isn't present on the -600, as well as a couple other things.

On the lighter side, I'm convinced I'll eventually blame you entirely for every upgrade in my cockpit...   :-)

[squeaky.stow]

Beautiful. I particularly like the Boeing knobs on the panel lighting dimmers. Classy!

[StevenL757]

2 hours ago, squeaky.stow said:

Beautiful. I particularly like the Boeing knobs on the panel lighting dimmers. Classy!

Was wondering if anyone would pick up on that.  Good eyes.  ;-)

[squeaky.stow]

Considering how many Boeings are sitting idle these days, it will probably be quite some time before anyone notices they are missing. ;-)

[Neshi]

On 7/17/2020 at 8:34 AM, StevenL757 said:

So...all finished, save for the autopilot which is actually running very well right now (knock on wood).  It will be the last thing I likely do to upgrade the aircraft.  Exact AP model yet to be determined.  One small trim issue during validation and testing, but overall, a clean installation.  I absolutely love it...Islip Avionics scored another huge win.  They really do phenomenal work.

Steve

Looks awesome.

[Greg_D]

On 7/17/2020 at 10:18 AM, donkaye said:

I spent over $6,000 with both Autopilot Central in Tulsa and LAC in San Jose trying to get rid of "wing rock" after the interface of the KFC 150 to the G500.  Never did fully get rid of it.  After an installation issue causing oscillation in pitch and finding that the elevator and yoke needed to be well lubricated, the GFC 500 has flown on rails in all attitudes whether level flight, turns, or on approach. 

Where exactly were the lubrication points in the elevator and yoke that you mentioned?

[Niko182]

10 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

Where exactly were the lubrication points in the elevator and yoke that you mentioned?

the yoke shaft.

[StevenL757]

On 7/22/2020 at 12:50 AM, Niko182 said:

the yoke shaft.

Yes, and the guide blocks.

[MIm20c]

I want to be just like Steven when I grow up...

[ArtVandelay]

I want to be just like Steven when I grow up...

Now would be an excellent time to replace the defroster hoses. Cheap and easy to do it now.

[MIm20c]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

Now would be an excellent time to replace the defroster hoses. Cheap and easy to do it now.

Ironically I was just looking over the picture and thought the same thing as you replied.