Airplane ownership CV19

[bonal]

Just wondering if folks that have had their business impacted by this over reaching violation of our constitutional rights are in jeopardy of losing their beloved Mooney. I know some of you are professional pilots I sure hope and pray your doing OK.  It doesn't look like anyone is willing to be the first to actually step up and let life start to return to normal. And we are hearing such Orwellian ideas of having to carry an immunity card in order to go out into public. I see that all the so called geniuses and their projections on how many people were going to die from this weren't even close. I know we're not out of the woods yet but how can you make such draconian predictions if you don't have the most important part of your math equation i.e., how many have been infected. Why has California had so few cases compared to areas on the eastern end of the country we have 40 million people in this state the most likely answer is that we were exposed to this virus possibly as early as last December and have already acquired some level of immunity.  There are so many examples of regions in this country that have hardly any cases especially when you compare it to yearly average cases of the flu for shits sake and they have to follow to same blueprint as say NY City. This shutdown of the economy and of our constitutional rights is far far more deadly than a damn virus. All this social distancing has done is Delayed our only way to fight this infection by developing our bodies natural immunity through exposure like we do with every flu season. Are you willing to wait until next year in the hopes of a vaccine we have never been able to create one that is even close to being truly effective, ever.   and now that we have allowed our government at every level to herd us like the sheep we are into a state of fear and self imposed quarantine we have created the precedent for the next viral threat perhaps this fall we will all just close our doors again that is if we are lucky enough to even be allowed to open them up ever again if it starts to get worse which is inevitable because we prevented our immunity by sheltering .  I find it very concerning that the government gets to decide what is an essential business. I would think everyone's business that provides the ability to pay the bills and support your family is pretty F...ing essential to them.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely is dangerously close. 

To all my fellow Mooney flyers please forgive my angry rant but I am so disheartened by how this has and is still playing out with no end in sight.

i hope all of you are well 

Edited April 17, 2020 by bonal

[carusoam]

Gilead’s Remdesivir is looking better and better as a short term solution... (news from 4pm this afternoon...)

Presidential speech was an hour late compared to the news of the day...

Tough choices of horrible illness vs. privacy rights...

Tough choices in all directions...

PP thoughts only, not giving up my rights without a long hard look at the benefits...

Our choices can directly impact other people...

Some people can work from home... others have to go outside...

A small check may be on the way to help... but not easy to access for the ones that may need it the most.

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

You are correct Anthony our choices do, but that includes many things including flying our airplanes over densely populated areas. Look I know this situation is complicated but we have to be very very careful about how it will impact our freedom and for those of our children. There is a lot more at stake here than the sickness of our fellow man.

Be well my friend 

[carusoam]

Being dead, doesn’t leave much freedom to fight for...

But, do be ready to fight the good fight...

Expect it to be a logic battle at first...  

I don’t recall anyone ever thinking tracking your personal stats by cell phone and sharing with everyone, your location....

This is totally unamerican...

We can be safe and American at the same time...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Brian E.]

The good news is we're all Mooney owners (or presumably at least fans of Mooney's) and once in my Mooney I can do what ever I want as long as I comply with the FARs.

  I'm intentionally staying away from the political and constitutional rights debate and choosing to not be aggrieved.  If I need to find some solace I'll go take a few trips around the flagpole or burn holes in the sky.  Yes, there's several trips I've missed...but I still look forward to them in the near future--NYC, PHL, many local and distant islands.

  I do miss the fly-ins and social aspects.  I miss admiring all the planes I wish I could fly. I miss all the food I could be enjoying.  I know we'll be back in time!

 

 

[kortopates]

I have complete faith that Science will provide the solution(s) and this too will pass in time. Its far from easy to remain patient, but I want to see as many of us as possible survive this thing - including my self! During this pandemic, I am just thankful that as an aircraft owner pilot, and not a rental pilot, I don't have to feel I am taking big chances getting into a rental plane that may not be corona virus free. At least airborne I know  ATC will do a great job of keeping me at least 6' from any other aircraft.  In all seriousness, I do believe  early social distancing has been paying off in flattening the curve here in CA.

Check in with your local tower and ATC controllers to see how they're doing as well. Both my tower and TRACON folks are working on reduced staff but from what I understand none have gotten sick like some other areas in the country. 

[Tony Starke]

4 hours ago, bonal said:

Just wondering if folks that have had their business impacted by this over reaching violation of our constitutional rights are in jeopardy of losing their beloved Mooney. I know some of you are professional pilots I sure hope and pray your doing OK.  It doesn't look like anyone is willing to be the first to actually step up and let life start to return to normal. And we are hearing such Orwellian ideas of having to carry an immunity card in order to go out into public. I see that all the so called geniuses and their projections on how many people were going to die from this weren't even close. I know we're not out of the woods yet but how can you make such draconian predictions if you don't have the most important part of your math equation i.e., how many have been infected. Why has California had so few cases compared to areas on the eastern end of the country we have 40 million people in this state the most likely answer is that we were exposed to this virus possibly as early as last December and have already acquired some level of immunity.  There are so many examples of regions in this country that have hardly any cases especially when you compare it to yearly average cases of the flu for shits sake and they have to follow to same blueprint as say NY City. This shutdown of the economy and of our constitutional rights is far far more deadly than a damn virus. All this social distancing has done is Delayed our only way to fight this infection by developing our bodies natural immunity through exposure like we do with every flu season. Are you willing to wait until next year in the hopes of a vaccine we have never been able to create one that is even close to being truly effective, ever.   and now that we have allowed our government at every level to herd us like the sheep we are into a state of fear and self imposed quarantine we have created the president for the next viral threat perhaps this fall we will all just close our doors again that is if we are lucky enough to even be allowed to open them up ever again if it starts to get worse which is inevitable because we prevented our immunity by sheltering .  I find it very concerning that the government gets to decide what is an essential business. I would think everyone's business that provides the ability to pay the bills and support your family is pretty F...ing essential to them.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely is dangerously close. 

To all my fellow Mooney flyers please forgive my angry rant but I am so disheartened by how this has and is still playing out with no end in sight.

i hope all of you are well 

Business impacted by federal and local government overreach? Check

Disappointed in Fauci’s consistent failures? Check

Sick of the entire crisis being used by Marxist, power hungry politicians to exercise their domination over us? Check

Lose my Mooney? No way

Succumb to tyranny? Not a chance

Still an All-American, second amendment defender of freedom ass kicker? You bet. 
 

This will not set a precedent, we the people won’t allow it. 
 

 

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, Tony Starke said:

Business impacted by federal and local government overreach? Check

Disappointed in Fauci’s consistent failures? Check

Sick of the entire crisis being used by Marxist, power hungry politicians to exercise their domination over us? Check

Lose my Mooney? No way

Succumb to tyranny? Not a chance

Still an All-American, second amendment defender of freedom ass kicker? You bet. 
 

This will not set a precedent, we the people won’t allow it. 
 

 

Id like to subscribe to your newsletter.  

[Kmac]

3 hours ago, Tony Starke said:

 

This will not set a precedent, we the people won’t allow it. 
 

 

My worry is that a precedent has been set.  Suppose the 2021 flu season is slightly worse than normal...can the economy and life be shut off again to save lives?  Maybe there are too many car accident deaths in 2022 and "they" no longer allow driving?  Too extreme?   I don't know...I never saw this coming. 

What is the New Hampshire motto? Live free or die...

I am about there and willing to take my chances.   If someone else's idea of freedom is self isolation so be it...

I now believe enough people know of the virus and they can decide on their own how to best protect themselves and what risks to take. 

To the original poster @bonal my ownership has been affected.   I sold my C last fall and planned to upgrade this spring.   I won't be doing that yet...

[PJClark]

The truth is nobody is trying to vigorously  enforce any of these restrictions...for the simple reason that they're un-enforceable.  There is no legal or constitutional  authority.  They're highly encouraged, sensible suggestions.  No precedents are set.

[Ross Taylor]

We own a business that's doing okay, as it is a food manufacturing biz for a product carried in grocery stores.  But, literally a week before our City shut us down, we opened a new restaurant in Flagstaff.  We had just finished two weeks of staff training and "guinea pig" dinner service, then had 5 days with the doors open...before our City declared an emergency and prohibited dine-in service...with no known cases in Northern Arizona at the time.  Poor timing on our part, but we certainly didn't see this coming.  And we'll be okay, so this isn't a pity party.  But, wow, the overreach and panic is disturbing.

During my first career as a police officer, I learned (and lived) the concept of proportional response to a threat.  I think it's clear that the governmental restrictions were made based on models, not reality, and that the prohibitions imposed were not proportional to the risk this virus poses to us as a Nation.  While the threat is certainly serious for some at-risk groups (like my own mom and sister), there are more conservative ways to respond to this threat than forcing the widespread closure of businesses and the suspension of rights.

Okay, back to thinking about plane plans...since our E finally got in for annual this week!

 

 

[Paul_Havelka]

A lot of the response has been because this is something new.  We have been desensitized to things like the flu, heart disease, etc and have accepted that as the norm.  With Covid-19 being new there is an inherent fear just due to the ignorance of how it responds and what we can expect.  

 

As to if this has effected my ownership, not directly.  I currently own a Piper Cherokee 180 that I'm trying to sell and purchase a Mooney

[aviatoreb]

50 minutes ago, Creekrat said:

A lot of the response has been because this is something new.  We have been desensitized to things like the flu, heart disease, etc and have accepted that as the norm.  With Covid-19 being new there is an inherent fear just due to the ignorance of how it responds and what we can expect.  

 

As to if this has effected my ownership, not directly.  I currently own a Piper Cherokee 180 that I'm trying to sell and purchase a Mooney

It is also scary because we do not know where it will go, and how large it will grow.  Some say it will grow to only - "only" - 50,000 dead.  Some say 10, 100, and I have seen even some say 200 times larger than that, if it were entirely unconstrained and we do nothing.  I don't know.  But it is unknown.

On a weekly basis, it is currently a more significant killer than any of the standard killers we are used to, heart disease, cancer, car crashes,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ba5izxtyu1lcgw/Screenshot 2020-04-17 15.35.36.png?dl=0

Here's food for thought (not just you creekrate I don't mean to pick on you).  During WWII people were drafted into the Army and Navy, etc (and at many other times in our history).  Why is that not an infringement of our civil rights any different from asking people to act in a manner that addresses this threat?

That said, PJClark is right.  This are rules of isolation put forward with essentially no enforcement mechanism.  So toothless on the one hand, and well advised on the other.  That said, as toothless it seems the call that these are infringements to rights of freedom also become toothless.  If anyone wants to go out and protest on the steps of the state capital in Michigan, no one is stopping them.  I think some places are writing civil fines but no one is being arrested - but I am saying that from what I am reading and I don't know for sure.  On the other hand during a time of drafts to the army, people go to jail for not complying.  So why is that not arguably a worse infringement on basis rights to freedom?  Or are rights to freedom also contingent on a responsibility to a call to protect them?

[Paul_Havelka]

Oh it absolutely needs to be taken seriously and when I'm not at may day job, 28/28 rotation offshore in the oilfield, I am a volunteer firefighter/first responder back home.  Unfortunately for those of us that care, the statistics are lying to us.  If you look at the pneumonia and influenza deaths since the arrival of Covid-19 they have gone down to virtually zero.  How can that be?  If someone is "suspected" of having CV-19 then their death is automatically assigned to the CV-19 death stats.  In addition, if someone had a condition with a weakened immune system i.e. cancer treatment, prior infection, HIV/AIDS, etc and they contracted or it was suspected that they contracted CV-19 and succumbed to the combination then their death is also being recorded as a CV-19 fatality whereas in the past is has always been attributed to the condition that lead to them getting the tertiary infection.

[aviatoreb]

41 minutes ago, Creekrat said:

Oh it absolutely needs to be taken seriously and when I'm not at may day job, 28/28 rotation offshore in the oilfield, I am a volunteer firefighter/first responder back home.  Unfortunately for those of us that care, the statistics are lying to us.  If you look at the pneumonia and influenza deaths since the arrival of Covid-19 they have gone down to virtually zero.  How can that be?  If someone is "suspected" of having CV-19 then their death is automatically assigned to the CV-19 death stats.  In addition, if someone had a condition with a weakened immune system i.e. cancer treatment, prior infection, HIV/AIDS, etc and they contracted or it was suspected that they contracted CV-19 and succumbed to the combination then their death is also being recorded as a CV-19 fatality whereas in the past is has always been attributed to the condition that lead to them getting the tertiary infection.

My cousin is a medic with the fire department in Baltimore.  She learned her trade as a medic in the Isreali army.  She is telling quite some stories.  They are low on PPG.  You have a tough job and I thank you for being part of the front team.

Do you know for a fact that "If someone is "suspected" of having CV-19 then their death is automatically assigned to the CV-19 death stats. "  I have a hard time believing that.  I do believe that the docs still know how to make a diagnosis even without a genetic test.  Yes, there will be some errors but I am not willing to call them all dumb and assert that they are oafs assigning all deaths to be CV19 right now.  The disease has a characteristic set of symptoms and pattern.  We are reporting over 30,000 deaths in the USA right now, and I do believe that this could stay tamed at not a lot higher, or it could well be one hundred times higher, depending on how we as a society collectively react.  I do not know what we will do.  I have known two people who have died of this thing, and I know several who are sick.  Neither person who died might have died soon if they had not caught this thing.

As for cause of death.  I am not willing to say that if someone had cancer or a heart disease or another immune suppressing condition and then they catch CV19 and then die then well that it was not because of CV19.  That is not the standard for assessing cause of death.  If a person with a heart condition catches CV19 and then they die then well if they had not caught the disease and might have lived another 10 years, or 20, I am not going to say well it was the heart disease and not the CV19.  My own son is 18 years old, and he is immune suppressed.  I hope to god we do not get this in the house, and I hope he lives another 90 years.  And he could and should.  According to what you just described, if he were to catch this, then you would blame his prior condition.  Knock on wood please.  I already am.

Edited April 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Hank]

The CDC has put out new "standards" for ruling a death to be from COVID-19 that do not line up with prior practice, leading to Cause of Death = COVID to be much higher than for other diseases. Some doctors are resisting, saying they have never listed "influenza" as a cause and do not want to list "COVID" as a cause--those have always been secondary. Like the NTSB lists "failure to maintain control" as the cause of an airplane crash, with "bad weather" a secondary cause, so doctors will list "pulmonary failure " as the Cause with infection as secondary. Not so now, deaths from pulminary failure secondary to pnuemonia, which started in a person weakened by COVID, it's listed as a COVID death.

The models are also being revised downwards, with overall death rates approaching that of seasonal flu. Seems due to limited testing, death rates were assumed to be much hugher, because no one had a ckue abiut the actual infection rate. As that number increases, the death rate plummets. We are no longer only testing people admitted to hospitals . . . Expect the infection number to skyrocket, the death number to slowly rise, and the death rate to plummet.

So the massive government restriction of our 1st and 2nd Amendment rights doesn't matter? People being run iut of religious services by armed police doesn't matter? Our rights to free and unrestricted travel doesn't count? Some states are even arresting people (yes, they are) for having peaceful assemblies within their homes. Read the U. S. Constitution, Amendment #2, and tell me the basis for these actions?

[Danb]

I have a distant cousin, who had one kidney, COPD and a host of other illnesses and was 80, decided to continue working yes 80 yrs old, got a case of COVID. Lasted about 14 days 10 on ventilator, his death was considered from the pandemic.

concerning economic issues I have a host of clients doing poorly, three day care centers losing thousands weekly, a large senior center shut down only meals on wheels, over a dozen other small clients close to losing it all. Many in retail such as a jewelry store could stay open with proper guidelines such as social distancing, I’m concerned more of the increasing number of suicides, home breakups etc. 

Hopefully there can be a quality way to get most back to work. Essential businesses what I have two gunstores open and sold out, other retail closed down?

Many of the policies don’t make sense while others do, unfortunately to many folks won’t consider others by not distancing themselves.

Crazy times, hopefully the Mooney community will stay safe.

[bonal]

4 hours ago, PJClark said:

The truth is nobody is trying to vigorously  enforce any of these restrictions...for the simple reason that they're un-enforceable.  There is no legal or constitutional  authority.  They're highly encouraged, sensible suggestions.  No precedents are set.

You are correct however there have been a few citations issued in my county  even though we have only 6 total positive cases and three of those have already recovered and given the all clear.  My point is the mandatory closing of business and most commercial "non essential activities" this HAS been enforced and caused possible un recoverable damage to our economy. We blew through a two plus four TRILLION dollar stimulus faster than my last roll of toilet paper. Debt on top of dept the potential for massive inflation is a real concern.

I certainly don't want anyone to suffer from this let alone die but there have been many reports of inflated numbers of deaths attributed to covid19 for example in NY when they hit around 11 thousand they clearly listed that over 3700 were people that were quote un tested but they were listed as covid deaths.  Also I am curious about the total lack of death being attributed to the flu this season I can't find any numbers and since we are not getting 100% testing done and with symptoms very similar I would bet dollars to doughnuts they are listed as covid caused and added to the totals. 

As for not setting a precedent well time will tell and please educate me if I'm wrong about the draft but didn't the US congress enact some kind of wartime legislation as per the constitution as opposed to state governments just forcing people to close their businesses with nothing more than some health official making a recommendation not even a debate within each states legislative body. Just a declaration of as of this date you are prohibited from this and that until further notice.

totally un constitutional 

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, bonal said:

...but there have been many reports of inflated numbers of deaths attributed to covid19 for example in NY when they hit around 11 thousand they clearly listed that over 3700 were people that were quote un tested but they were listed as covid deaths.  

I just don't buy that argument it.  Of course there will be errors.  Anything humans touch, count, report or describe will have errors.  But this is not something that we can sweep under the rug by saying those people who died would have died anyway and corrupt doctors and governors are reporting deaths falsely, but there is a real number out there that is dramatically lower.  If a person dies 10 years earlier than they might have died had they not caught CV19, even if it is due to a bad heart, a cancer survivor or whatever, when it is someone I know I will be looking at the CV19.  In any case, I am not buying there is a conspiracy to over report the number of deaths.

As for the feds, it would have been better if the feds had taken a leading role in all this, but they have not.

I am curious what folks say to what I asked above, about what the consition has to say about the right of the government to revoke someones right to freedom so it may seem when a person is drafted into the army?

Whatever we do, there is not a happy path through this thing.  Whatever we do, there will be very unpleasant outcomes and then we arm chair quarter backs, me included, will criticize those decision makers and wish they had done the other thing. There is a lot at stake here.

Edited April 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

27 minutes ago, Danb said:

I have a distant cousin, who had one kidney, COPD and a host of other illnesses and was 80, decided to continue working yes 80 yrs old, got a case of COVID. Lasted about 14 days 10 on ventilator, his death was considered from the pandemic.

concerning economic issues I have a host of clients doing poorly, three day care centers losing thousands weekly, a large senior center shut down only meals on wheels, over a dozen other small clients close to losing it all. Many in retail such as a jewelry store could stay open with proper guidelines such as social distancing, I’m concerned more of the increasing number of suicides, home breakups etc. 

Hopefully there can be a quality way to get most back to work. Essential businesses what I have two gunstores open and sold out, other retail closed down?

Many of the policies don’t make sense while others do, unfortunately to many folks won’t consider others by not distancing themselves.

Crazy times, hopefully the Mooney community will stay safe.

Hi Dan, I am very sorry to hear about your cousin.

[bonal]

Please don't misunderstand I am not trying to trivialize that this virus isn't hardcore all I'm saying is there are concerns beyond just health and illness to consider. I'm sure there are millions of people that have lost their ability to provide for themselves and their families and I can't count how many TV doctors and health officials that think of this as an "inconvenience"  that I have watched or read in the news. Look I don't post much here on MS anymore because when it comes to our main subject i.e. Aviating and Mooney experience I don't have much to offer but I read multiple times a day because I have so much to learn.  But this situation with Covid and all that it has done has really struck a nerve. I just want things to get better but worry how easy it was to just shut everything down.

[Brian E.]

16 hours ago, Kmac said:

What is the New Hampshire motto? Live free or die...

Staying our of the political discussion, I'd like share with the rest of the State motto penned as a toast to mark the 32nd anniversary of the Battle of Bennington which was a pivotal victory in the Revolutionary War.

Live Free or Die; death is not the worst of evils.  General John Stark 

  If that doesn't fire you up...

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

Some musical inspiration in these most difficult times we are all sharing...................no matter what style of music you love, there is music for everyone...............there is nothing more powerful than music!  Enjoy!! 

 

[PT20J]

It might be informative to understand how the coronavirus works: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/04/02/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly/

There are two important numbers for how serious a virus pandemic can be. The first is the mortality rate (the percentage of those infected that die). The mortality rate is difficult to pin down as it apparently varies depending on a Number of factors. But according to Johns Hopkins University the mortality rate in the hardest hit areas of the US exceeds 4%; in New York, it is 6.67%. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map

The second important number is the reproduction number, R0, which is the number of additional persons infected by each infected person. The R0 was originally thought to be 2.2, but recent analysis from China indicates that it could be as high as 5.7. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article

Both of these numbers are much higher than for the flu to which COVID-19 is often compared. Seasonal flu mortality is about 0.1% and R0 is about 1.3 according to CDC calculations.

The best database for COVID-19 statistics is maintained by Johns Hopkins University https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/

The Johns Hopkins data feeds the University of Washington IHME models used to predict deaths. This is the model that originally predicted >> 100K deaths in the US without social distancing. After social distancing was widely adopted by the states, the projection went down to as low as 61K deaths and is now about 68K. The projection  gets updated every few days as new data is available. Note that the projections assume that social distancing continues through May. https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

At least one study of the 1918 Influenza epidemic by researchers at the Federal Reserve and MIT indicates that early and aggressive public health interventions may lead to reduced economic fallout. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3561560

There are indications that rural states that have had low infection rates without social distancing may just be late to the party https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/politics/republican-governors-stay-at-home-coronavirus/index.html

Immunity is not as simple as the headlines often portray it (we need a vaccine and effective treatments). https://www.wired.com/story/sorry-immunity-to-covid-19-wont-be-like-a-superpower/

Anyway you look at it, it's a disaster both economically and medically. A lot of folks are hurting.

Skip

 

[MIm20c]

I feel and understand the frustration in this thread. I’m also concerned with the authority given to certain branches/individuals to control the country and manipulate he markets.  However, my largest concern is the widespread access to this virus and the ability for it to be stored so easily.