Dry rate M20E

[skydvrboy]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m asking... I’m definitely not raining on your parade or your planned usage... doesn’t “leasing” require 100 hour inspections and much different insurance?  Like not just adding him to yours, but specifically insurance to lease the airplane?  It’s not like you’re “sharing operating costs” which is specifically allowed.

I guess I’d feel more comfortable if he bought in as a minority owner and then paid the insurance difference.  You guys could work out the $$ details however you like in the partnership - fixed, operational, both, etc.

I don't believe so (others on here could probably answer this better). 

Part 91.409 states: (b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

He would not be carrying a person for hire or providing flight instruction for hire.  There is no language that I'm aware of requiring a 100 hr inspection that specifically mentions leasing aircraft.

[NJMac]

7 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m asking... I’m definitely not raining on your parade or your planned usage... doesn’t “leasing” require 100 hour inspections and much different insurance?  Like not just adding him to yours, but specifically insurance to lease the airplane?  It’s not like you’re “sharing operating costs” which is specifically allowed.

I guess I’d feel more comfortable if he bought in as a minority owner and then paid the insurance difference.  You guys could work out the $$ details however you like in the partnership - fixed, operational, both, etc.

Definitely not taking it like you're raining on the parade.  I did think of that and didn't want to get into the 100 hr inspections and such for a rental machine.  Wonder how @gsxrpilot pulls it off with his being dry leased? 

[Ragsf15e]

32 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I don't believe so (others on here could probably answer this better). 

Part 91.409 states: (b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

He would not be carrying a person for hire or providing flight instruction for hire.  There is no language that I'm aware of requiring a 100 hr inspection that specifically mentions leasing aircraft.

I agree he’s not using it as a commercial pilot, more like a rental airplane... whatever applies to a rental would probably apply to the “lease” unless the person was a part owner, then it wouldn’t.

[Ragsf15e]

Reading this, https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/maintenance-and-inspections/aircraft-inspections#2

I don’t think 100hr inspections apply.  Seems like it’s mostly an insurance issue to make sure everyone is properly covered.  

Maybe some tax issues depending on how deep you want to dig into it (sales tax comes to mind depending on state).

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, NJMac said:

Definitely not taking it like you're raining on the parade.  I did think of that and didn't want to get into the 100 hr inspections and such for a rental machine.  Wonder how @gsxrpilot pulls it off with his being dry leased? 

No formal lease? No paperwork? A gentlemen's agreement? Bartering? More of a partnership? 

[carusoam]

So.... a summary...ish.

We start with a call to the insurance company...

1) A copy of a few pages of log books showing the hours of flying a Mooney are good....

2) All the pilot records of PPL number and ratings are good...

3) Possibly some recency could be important...

4) When I went to add my CFII to the named list... my insurance company already knew Cris...

5) Total Cost to add my CFII to my insurance was zero...

6) Dry cost is a bit challenging to figure out... a simple engine OH is in the 25amu every 2khrs... 12.5$/hr...

7) Assumptions are made about everything else that breaks or wears... the annual covers most of it... 2.5amu for 100hrs... or so... 2.5$/hr.

8) Sounds like a call to the AOPA legal department may make an interesting conversation...

9) be aware of cost sharing limitations as pointed out by Afward below...

Thanks go to Alex for a real world example of actual cost of flying a Long Body...

We’re going to need a Snapchat option for this thread...   read and go away kind of option... 

PP thoughts only, not a legal eagle... or insurance Eagle....

Best regards,

-a-

[afward]

6 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

There are entire chapters in accounting books describing when and where you use the different approaches.

-Robert

For a business that would be completely appropriate.  For a hobby?  Well, "you're doing it wrong."  Unless of course you also enjoy an accounting hobby...

And for those of us who do fly as a hobby, it's probably better to keep it simple: If FAR 61.113(c) lets a private pilot pro rata split it, it's an hourly cost (well, maybe "trip" cost when seen in aggregate).  Everything else is just the price of admission.  Doing it that way helps maintain the correct mindset with regard to cost sharing on trips.

[Hank]

7 hours ago, afward said:

And for those of us who do fly as a hobby, it's probably better to keep it simple: If FAR 61.113(c) lets a private pilot pro rata split it, it's an hourly cost (well, maybe "trip" cost when seen in aggregate).  Everything else is just the price of admission.  Doing it that way helps maintain the correct mindset with regard to cost sharing on trips.

The discussion above isn't cost sharing on a trip together (all thoroughly explained many places), it's "can I borrow your plane? I'll pay my expenses (fuel, oil, FBO, etc.). How much will you charge me?" Or that's my understanding. 

[tigers2007]

Trip cost sharing only allows fuel and oil. Nothing else. Not insurance, hangar, overhaul fund, or interest. The FAA makes that clear.

[tmo]

Well, the FAA allows the rental fee to be split as well, right?  As well as FBO / airport fees and such - things that are directly related to the specific flight.

[tigers2007]

Well, the FAA allows the rental fee to be split as well, right?  As well as FBO / airport fees and such - things that are directly related to the specific flight.

Yes the rental fee is specially noted as being a shareable cost on a pro data basis. 61.113© “... only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.”

[afward]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

The discussion above isn't cost sharing on a trip together (all thoroughly explained many places), it's "can I borrow your plane? I'll pay my expenses (fuel, oil, FBO, etc.). How much will you charge me?" Or that's my understanding. 

That is correct.  I was merely replying to the tangent about how to account fixed costs.

To the OP's question, I'd personally probably do a non-equity partnership so there are no questions about "is it a rental" or how many hours per month.  That way the "membership" cost is a portion of the fixed costs (and all of the difference in monthly insurance cost), and the "usage" cost is a reasonable set-aside.  Completely guessing, that would put the OP at something like $500/mo + $45/hr.  If that's not possible, then I'd defer to the rest of the group here.

[NJMac]

The discussion above isn't cost sharing on a trip together (all thoroughly explained many places), it's "can I borrow your plane? I'll pay my expenses (fuel, oil, FBO, etc.). How much will you charge me?" Or that's my understanding. 

That is correct.

He and I are going to do breakfast tomorrow and will talk more. He texted after this thread that he would probably rent an arrow at a different local airport. Doesn't help me or my plane but whatevs. I don't get it but it's not my decision.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

This situation doesn’t seem to fit the usual shared expenses situations discussed in flight school...

As this is two different pilots sharing a plane on two different flights...

Enough to ask an aviation lawyer for clarification...

AOPA May have that legal service...

PP thoughts only, not a lawyer...

Best regards,

-a-

[Nukemzzz]

On 3/4/2020 at 10:45 AM, Bolter said:

Can't the CFII become named on the Bo's insurance instead of using the Open Pilot clause?  You do not need to own a share of the plane to be on the policy.  I had my good friend as named on my Mooney for 7 years, until I moved to Seattle last year.  He had more ratings and time than me, so there was not even a cost to keep him on.  

This is what I've done while training for my PPL in my M20E.  Both the CFI and I are on the insurance.  There aren't many people that meet the open pilot clause...present company on this forum excluded.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I don’t believe 100 hour inspections are required for rental aircraft. They are required for flight instruction. (Flight instructors and students are hard on airplanes). It is rare to find a rental airplane that isn’t used for flight instruction.

My understanding is that you can rent your own airplane and split the rental rate as long as the airplane is actually for rent and not just set up as a straw man to split the costs.

BTW, you can do whatever you want if nobody can find out. Cash and trusted friends...

[MooneyDriver1]

On 3/4/2020 at 8:09 AM, Mooneymite said:

This thread should be immediately terminated!

Everyone knows that to keep Mooneyspace a happy, vibrant, ignorant community, the hourly cost of our flying should never be figured, discussed, explored, or divulged to our spouses!

Most truthful thing said today.  The numbers though sound pretty spot on from my experience.  The 100 inspections hurdle is an extra expense the way your scenario is listed, but will lower annual costs in my experience by spreading the issues.  And a happy plane is one that flys the most.  

[carusoam]

MD1...

You will Probably find the term AMU fascinating as it gets used quite often...

Best regards,

-a-