Aviation Insurance Market Update

[chriscalandro]

Also, if you’re listed on the policy doesn’t that mean you can then also make a claim to a potion of the payout?

[mike_elliott]

...which is what CFI insurance is for...
if I pay a Cfi to do training, and that Cfi puts me into a spin 3000 ft above the ground while demonstrating maneuvers, you want me to pay the insurance for you on my airplane so you can make sure you’re protected?
 
no. 
 
it’s the CFIs responsibility to rote the himself and that insurance cost is built into the hourly cost. 
 
it sounds a lot like I’d be increasing my liability for you to reduce yours limiting any recourse I or insurance would have for a CFI doing something stupid. 
 
id like to hear what the insurance guy has to say about it. 

Do you demand anyone who drives your car get a separate policy also?
Do you like having different groups of attorneys squabble over who to blame?
Do you have a reason not to include your mentor on the policy?
Do you think your insurance limits are decreased by adding an instructor on your policy?
Just curious why you feel so strongly against this.
Why would a CFI put you into a spin? .you would be the one who has the controls, it would be him that keeps you from this most likely.
Tell you what, I'll fly with you as long as it is in a simulator only


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[KLRDMD]

11 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Tell you what, I'll fly with you as long as it is in a simulator only

You're more generous than I am.

[chriscalandro]

I didn’t ask anyone to fly with me. I’m quite picky these days who I fly with. 

no, anybody who drives my car (almost nobody) has their own policy.

I pay for insurance specifically so I don’t  have to deal with attorneys (hopefully) and the squabble and blame happens after I have been paid out.

theres a difference between a mentor and someone I’ve paid to teach me a skill. 
 

I don’t know, that’s why I said I’d like to hear from the insurance guy.
 

Any person is capable of making a mistake. CFIs included. The example I mentioned was a demonstration that would NOT have my hands on the controls. Plus if it was a training flight I wouldn’t be PIC and by definition of a training flight could NOT be PIC. 

[chriscalandro]

20 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

You're more generous than I am.

I’m trying to find the part where I asked either of you to fly with me. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by chriscalandro

[Andy95W]

3 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

 I’m quite picky these days who I fly with. 

 

So then none of us CFIs here have to worry about it.  That's a win-win!

[chriscalandro]

4 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

So then none of us CFIs here have to worry about it.  That's a win-win!

See post above. 

[chriscalandro]

13 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

So then none of us CFIs here have to worry about it.  That's a win-win!

See post above. Your cry for attention and inclusion is unwanted and unnecessary. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by chriscalandro

[chriscalandro]

@Parker_Woodruff care to answer any of my items above?

id like the take of the insurance side on this. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

After 30+ years flying I’m working towards my initial CFI.  Passed the first written (FOI) yesterday.  Who-eee. 

I’m already concerned re liability especially for primary students.  This thread is not encouraging.  On the one side are owners militant against adding a named CFI to their insurance.  The other point of view apparently being that instructor liability is large and the insurance coverage expensive and full of gaps.   

Anyone care to chime in about the rewards of instruction and the relative risks incurred?   
 

 

[Andy95W]

28 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

See post above. Your cry for attention and inclusion is unwanted and unnecessary. 

And this thread isn't the first time you've asked questions and then gotten into an argument when you didn't like the answers.

[chriscalandro]

10 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

And this thread isn't the first time you've asked questions and then gotten into an argument when you didn't like the answers.

I didn’t realize you were an insurance expert. I asked for a professional opinion as opposed to one from the peanut gallery, and here you are.

When it comes to my property and liabilities I protect myself as much as possible. 
 

that’s why I specifically asked for Parker’s input. I want to know how this practice effects ME. 
 

now if you’re a friend and a mentor that’s different than someone I’ve hired to give training. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by chriscalandro

[mike_elliott]

I didn’t realize you were an insurance expert. I asked for a professional opinion as opposed to one from the peanut gallery, and here you are.
When it comes to my property and liabilities I protect myself as much as possible. 
 
that’s why I specifically asked for Parker’s input. I want to know how this practice effects ME. 
 
now if you’re a friend and a mentor that’s different than someone I’ve hired to give training. 

Parker is a CFI... You probably won't like his answer

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[chriscalandro]

Parker is an insurance professional. The fact that he is a CFI only gives more weight to his response. 
 

I’ll like whatever answer he gives. Again. I never said I was right, but fact is there are plenty of people around here who THINK they know the answers to the world. 
 

Parker has the correct answer. Which is why early on I stated I’d like his thoughts on the subject and best practices to protect myself. 
 

What I DID NOT do was ask some random dingus on the internet. 
 

my statements are based on my current knowledge and understanding, which I’m perfectly capable of accepting might not be accurate. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by chriscalandro

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

I didn’t ask anyone to fly with me. I’m quite picky these days who I fly with. 

I can just imagine.

Quote

no, anybody who drives my car (almost nobody) has their own policy.

you mean they have a non owned policy that would cover your car and you...good luck with that.

Quote

I pay for insurance specifically so I don’t  have to deal with attorneys (hopefully) and the squabble and blame happens after I have been paid out.

theres a difference between a mentor and someone I’ve paid to teach me a skill
 

I don’t know, that’s why I said I’d like to hear from the insurance guy.
 

Any person is capable of making a mistake. CFIs included. The example I mentioned was a demonstration that would NOT have my hands on the controls. Plus if it was a training flight I wouldn’t be PIC and by definition of a training flight could NOT be PIC. 

I think you pretty well defined who will be training you in the future. Oh, did I mention the insurance guy is a CFI who is young, yet still wont let you or your insurance carrier hedge their ineptness or bets with his assets?

It is evident I cannot get you to consider this point, so I will leave you to whatever belief you want without further trying to pass along a few years of experience in this area of training and client/cfi relationships. A final thought for you to consider when you do buy a plane and pay for insurance. Dont just select a policy based on whats below the bottom line.

 

[chriscalandro]

3 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

I can just imagine.

you mean they have a non owned policy that would cover your car and you...good luck with that.

I think you pretty well defined who will be training you in the future. Oh, did I mention the insurance guy is a CFI who is young, yet still wont let you or your insurance carrier hedge their ineptness or bets with his assets?

 

I’m sure he can speak for himself as well. 

Who voted you CFI and insurance voice of the internet?  Can I not just ask the man a question without his lordship speaking for him?

[Andy95W]

14 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

 

What I DID NOT do was ask some random dingus on the internet. 
 

I've been called worse than random dingus.  

But you're right, I shouldn't have stuck my nose in.  I should have left this between you and anybody you wanted to argue with.

Edit- But if you want to pick a fight, you should find someone who isn't as well respected around here as Mike Elliott is.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Andy95W

[mike_elliott]

After 30+ years flying I’m working towards my initial CFI.  Passed the first written (FOI) yesterday.  Who-eee. 
I’m already concerned re liability especially for primary students.  This thread is not encouraging.  On the one side are owners militant against adding a named CFI to their insurance.  The other point of view apparently being that instructor liability is large and the insurance coverage expensive and full of gaps.   
Anyone care to chime in about the rewards of instruction and the relative risks incurred?   
 
 

Congrats Jerry, you have an FAA certified memory!
The reward is meeting very cool people when you do new Mooney transitions. Financially, most instructors do far better in their discipline that allowed them to own a plane vs what they can do fiscally as an instructor.
As an engineer, I made a lot more $ than as a MCFI, but as an instructor, I can say I have flown 20 of the 28 Ultras in the wild

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[chriscalandro]

8 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I've been called worse than random dingus.  

But you're right, I shouldn't have stuck my nose in.  I should have left this between you and anybody you wanted to argue with.

Edit- But if you want to pick a fight, you should find someone who isn't as well respected around here as Mike Elliott is.

We agree on something!  
 

His lordship is not an insurance expert. I should be able to have an opinion and ask a question without getting such a childish response. I very specifically asked one single person for an opinion, and here we are. 

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

All the PA46 specialist CFII that I have trained with since 2011 have required they be added to my policy.   That’s not a new trend. 

I added my CFI to my policy when I bought the plane and did the transition training. All it took was an email to my agent with his information and I received an email back with an attachment showing the change and no increase in premium. Later I sent another email and had him removed. I'm not sure what all the fuss over the last page or so of this thread is all about...

[MIm20c]

I will confirm it is really easy to add a cfi to the policy. The only problem I have is every year they drop him (and anyone else non primary) so I have call them again to have him added. 

[Bob_Belville]

I hope Parker has the good sense to ignore this p*ssing contest...


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[chriscalandro]

I hope he has the sense to ignore the BS responses and let us know what the best practices for an owner are to minimize liability.  That was the original inquiry after posting my opinion. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by chriscalandro

[DanM20C]

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

Also, if you’re listed on the policy doesn’t that mean you can then also make a claim to a potion of the payout?

I'll see what @Parker_Woodruff has to say.  But I don't think so.  The payout would go to the owner of the policy and any lien holders, not a named insured.

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

Plus if it was a training flight I wouldn’t be PIC and by definition of a training flight could NOT be PIC. 

Not necessarily.  The majority of instruction I give I am NOT PIC.  It is discussed and decided who is PIC before engine start, every good instructor does this.

 

@Jerry 5TJ congratulations on passing the FOI.  Although we have never met, based on your posts and level of experience I'm sure you will make a excellent and valuable instructor.  I think your fears of liability are founded or at least commonly shared.  There are a lot of experienced folks out there who would enjoy and want to instruct, but don't because they have too much to loose. 

Thankfully we do have some experienced guys like @mike_elliott @kortopates @donkaye willing to put them self out there in order to teach others.  All of whom require to be named additional insured with a waiver of subrogation on the airplanes they get in. 

Mike, as of two weeks ago Avemco still required $200 to add an instructor.

Cheers,

Dan

 

[RobertGary1]

I've never had a student balk at adding me to their insurance nor have I had a student charged for it. I have had students tell me that their broker asked them what CFI's to add to their policy. I think the only issue is if you have too many on at a time. I believe there may be a limit.

 

-Robert