Mooney Down - W00 - Freeway Airport - Maryland

[steingar]

27 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 

There are two short runway scenarios that scare me...

...2) forgetting to latch the luggage door and having it lift just before rotation too far down the runway to successfully abort.

Guilty as charged.  Didn't even notice except I was 5 knots slow and there seemed to be a breeze.  Moreover, by the time I noticed it was just as quick to make it to my destination as it was to divert.  Of course I got to land in front of all my pals like that.  Just a little paint worn off the handle.  My CFI couldn't give me a very hard time.  He did the same thing, except the door departed the airframe and couldn't be recovered.  Had to buy a new one for many AMU's.

I can tell you from experience the airplane flies just fine.  It flies with the step left out, with the wheels left down...

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Hand should remain on the throttle until at least pattern altitude or higher.

Maybe it's just my plane, but with my vernier throttle, I don't see anyway it could spontaneously and instantly, reduce power to a dangerous level. Therefore, my relatively new SOP is to move my right hand from the throttle just prior to rotation but after being committed to fly, and grab hold of the center bar of the cage just above the glare shield. My hand is still in range of just about anything that would require attention, but if my seat let go, I will be pulling on the bar and not the yoke.

[Shadrach]

On 9/13/2019 at 4:48 PM, Ragsf15e said:

This would be my take on those...

1.  Hand should remain on the throttle until at least pattern altitude or higher.

2. Don’t stop unless at taxi speed or very long runway.  Yeah, it’ll be loud, maybe expensive too.  But the airplane will fly just fine.

Whats your thoughts?

I agree in theory .  In practice however, I only have two hands.  The one that should remain on the throttle is also the one that I use to operate the gear, trim and raise flaps. It amazed me how quickly the throttle could back out when the vernier was left loose. I can hold the nose high enough to keep the plane below Vfe but raising the gear typically happens shortly after positive rate.  It also necessitates the trim change as does raising flaps. I could leave the gear down and just stay configured for TO until pattern altitude but that leaves a lot of performance on the table.  It also changes my flow completely. So my preference  has been to add checking the vernier to my pre-takeoff checklist. It’s an easy one to get lazy on though because the vernier only gets loosened for short field landings where just a blip of throttle may be necessary.

 As for the baggage door I totally agree with you here as well. If you ever have one lift on TO roll (I have), your first instinct is to chop the throttle hit the brakes. This may not work out well at a <2500 foot strip. 

 So my preference here again is to make sure that my s#!+ is wired tight times three if the abort area is tight.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Shadrach
Talk to text butchered my post

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Maybe it's just my plane, but with my vernier throttle, I don't see anyway it could spontaneously and instantly, reduce power to a dangerous level. Therefore, my relatively new SOP is to move my right hand from the throttle just prior to rotation but after being committed to fly, and grab hold of the center bar of the cage just above the glare shield. My hand is still in range of just about anything that would require attention, but if my seat let go, I will be pulling on the bar and not the yoke.

Believe it. Years ago when departing the field at my favorite pilot shop (1800ft) lift off went perfectly fine. I reached down To raise the gear and retrim the aircraft. Climb rate deteriorated rapidly. With trees on both sides I had a good visual reference. When my hand went back to the throttle I was quite surprised to find how far it had backed out. I’m not saying we would’ve crashed. I am saying that I don’t scare easily and this scared me.  Mostly because it revealed that I’m a bonehead and made a boneheaded mistake.

[jetdriven]

Baggage door, or cabin door, at low speed and certain to stop, sure, reject,. But otherwise, take it in the air. the airplane flies just fine. In the case of the cabin door, no damage. The baggage door (often the cabin door also)  wont open until you are lifting off anyway, and the damage done is what it is. But certainly no reason to crash a flyable airplane.

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Believe it. Years ago when departing the field at my favorite pilot shop (1800ft) lift off went perfectly fine. I reached down To raise the gear and retrim the aircraft. Climb rate deteriorated rapidly. With trees on both sides I had a good visual reference. When my hand went back to the throttle I was quite surprised to find how far it had backed out. I’m not saying we would’ve crashed. I am saying that I don’t scare easily and this scared me.  Mostly because it revealed that I’m a bonehead and made a boneheaded mistake.

Even in the Boeing planes, hands on the throttles after takeoff. Many years ago, we had a Beech 1900D declare an emergency for engine failure, the low time director of safety was the CA on that one. They did a 180 and landed, one of the throttles vibrated back to idle. Still running.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Maybe it's just my plane, but with my vernier throttle, I don't see anyway it could spontaneously and instantly, reduce power to a dangerous level. Therefore, my relatively new SOP is to move my right hand from the throttle just prior to rotation but after being committed to fly, and grab hold of the center bar of the cage just above the glare shield. My hand is still in range of just about anything that would require attention, but if my seat let go, I will be pulling on the bar and not the yoke.

I understand the worry of your seat giving way and slipping back.

I have long legs and in fact I had an extra hold added to allow my seat even further back.  And I have checked that I can fly just fine, perhaps less comfortably, with the seat all the way back jammed to the back seat.

BUT - if not - I would put a 2 by 4 or maybe a 2 by 8 piece of wood behind the seat rails of the pilot seat - I promise if it gives way it won't go far back.

[jetdriven]

If you just open your hand when the seat slides back, it doesnt force a stall. A death grip on the yoke is hard to let go of. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I agree in theory .  In practice however, I only have two hands.  The one that should remain on the throttle is also the one that I use to operate the gear, trim and raise flaps. It amazed me how quickly the throttle could back out when the vernier was left loose. I can hold the nose high enough to keep the plane below Vfe but raising the gear typically happens shortly after positive rate.  It also necessitates the trim change as does raising flaps. I could leave the gear down and just stay configured for TO until pattern altitude but that leaves a lot of performance on the table.  It also changes my flow completely. So my preference  has been to add checking the Vernay to my pre-takeoff checklist. It’s an easy one to get lazy on though because the Vernie eight only gets loosened for short field landing‘s we’re just a blip of throttle may be necessary.

 As for the baggage door I totally agree with you here as well.I will see if you’ve ever had one lift on TO roll (I have), your first instinct is to chop the throttle hit the brakes. This may not work out well add a <2500 foot strip. 

 So my preference here again is to make sure that my s#!+ is wired tight times three if the abort area is tight.

Fair enough.  I can’t disagree with any of that.  I do the same actions after takeoff, just try to keep my hand on throttle most of the time.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Even in the Boeing planes, hands on the throttles after takeoff. Many years ago, we had a Beech 1900D declare an emergency for engine failure, the low time director of safety was the CA on that one. They did a 180 and landed, one of the throttles vibrated back to idle. Still running.

Yup. I get it. Just sharing what happened to me during Jbar operation and retrim. The only reason it happened is because I had removed all friction from the vernier during the approach so I could easily feather the throttle. I forgot to tighten it back up on take off. It’s a lesson I only needed to learn once. No loss in RPM...Engine sounded the same but ROC deteriorated rapidly.

[Seth]

At Freeway the normal procedure is to call Potomac approach from your cell phone get your IFR clearance and code, and state you can depart VFR.  Then depart VFR, and once you check in with Potomac approach  they then reclear you as per your phone call and you are on your way IFR.  On IMC days they actually release your. The bravo is low there and they can talk to you very soon off the ground.  So this was a VFR departure even though it was an IFR flight plan that has not yet been activated but had been copied.

-Seth

[Mooney in Oz]

14 hours ago, jetdriven said:

But certainly no reason to crash a flyable airplane.

Transport category twin turboprops have a system called 'Takeoff Inhibit' that inhibits any failure that triggers an amber 'Master Caution' warning.  It is activated from commencement of the takeoff roll until airborne and gear up selection to prevent crew distraction for failures that are considered not critical during the takeoff phase.  The crew will not even be aware of the issue until after takeoff.  

The red 'Master Warning' event (emergency) device is not inhibited so a rejected takeoff can be accomplished, provided the IAS is less than V1 (commit to fly/takeoff speed).  This is performance based to prevent runway overruns with serious consequences.

Relating this concept to flying my Mooney out of my home airfield runway that is ~ 3,000 feet long: Upon commencement of the takeoff roll I look at the following - IAS alive, power achieved, all instruments in the green then eyes outside.  I use the 50/70 rule (that I learnt on this forum) whereby I'll reject the takeoff before the halfway point if an event warrants a rejection, otherwise after this point I'll continue with the takeoff.

This is my personal choice and in no way is meant to be critical toward the pilot involved in this accident.  

[flyboy0681]

On 9/12/2019 at 6:10 PM, flyboy0681 said:

Here is video of the incident, it did pancake somewhat.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Small-Plane-Crash-at-Boca-Raton-Airport-One-Person-Taken-to-Hospital-560038701.html

I was at my airport today and heard all the details from someone who knows. The Dakota lost power after about 400 feet and the pilot did execute an impossible turn. He took the the top off of a palm tree and a pole housing a security camera at the gate, which essentially took the wing with it.

What's interesting, well not really interesting, is that earlier in the day he took off and returned because the engine was running rough. The second time up it quite altogether. Conventional wisdom to me would dictate figuring out on the ground why it's running rough and only fly it once it''s been figured out and remedied.

 

 

[M016576]

On 9/12/2019 at 11:29 AM, Seth said:

Any appropriate updates I get I'll post.  W00, Freeway, is my Mooney MSC and where my Mooney is right now with the engine being removed to be sent out and where my new propeller is heading for install.

-Seth

Seth!  New prop?!?! Are you doing this?!?!

ever since Erik swapped his prop out for that 4-blade MT, I started thinking about what a 3 blade MT would do for the Missile... imagine... 20-30lbs less weight that far forward on the nose....

while the extra U/L would be amazing.. the CG/balance on the aircraft would be even more compelling to me... imagine not being at  near full Nose Up trim on landing.

so..... are you doing this or what?! Details, man!!!

Edited September 15, 2019 by M016576