Fullerton Beech Duke crash 4/18/19

[gsengle]

this is probably a scenario were a dual engine failure would've been better than a single.

That’s why training is so important in a twin, a dual engine failure was only one lever away


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[Yetti]

Since mooneys can go up fast if you don't reset the trim.   Could this be a reset the trim issue?

[Austintatious]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Yikes.  Is it just me or does that takeoff angle look steep?  I'm completely unfamiliar with the Beech Duke

I know it seems silly to ask, but do we know about any survivors?

I don know about the Duke, but I used to fly an F model Aztec and in that aircraft the stall was below VMC.  That was with only 250 ponies per side.   Losing an engine below VMC the ONLY way to stop the roll is to pull power back on the good engine.

[Austintatious]

4 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

Flying a twin is a little like flying a taildragger. If you wait to use the rudder when the torque takes you, you will be in the bushes or ground looped before you know it. Same thing with an engine failure... But much more aggressive. It has to be instinct.
Training and repetition is key. At a critical speed and engine out, If you step on the wrong rudder, you're dead.
The video is hard to watch. All Vmc demos I have done never resulted in a roll that fast. That surprised me, but maybe the wrong rudder was applied.

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That is because typically in a vmc demonstration, the power is pulled to idle on one engine and the airspeed slowly bled off...  He was probably already below VMC and had instant engine failure.

[Austintatious]

4 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

Twins like that are easily off in 1000, especially if rotated slow. I don’t see a nose drop, and to get a stall at full power in a plane like that it would have to be a much steeper climb I’d think. Looks all roll...

 

See this photo? That’s at Vx on a training flight at altitude, around 15kts above stall/Vmc with two spinning... climb angles can be impressive... until an engine quits...

 

 

 

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i have to admit I am a bit skeptical of what you claim about that photo...  That looks like a good 40 degrees and there arent even many jets that can hold that for very long.

You make an interesting point though... if he stalled with both engines running at full power, the torque (unless the duke has counter rotating props) will torque roll the aircraft.  Machen aerostars suffered from this... that is why they have vortex generators on the BOTTOM of the wing and one side of the rudder.

[gsxrpilot]

I don't know what happened and have no twin time at all. But over on Beechtalk the two most experienced Duke instructors in the country don't think he lost an engine. They think it was a departure stall/spin.

Like I said, I wouldn't know or even be able to speculate myself.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I don't know what happened and have no twin time at all. But over on Beechtalk the two most experienced Duke instructors in the country don't think he lost an engine. They think it was a departure stall/spin.

Like I said, I wouldn't know or even be able to speculate myself.

Indeed an insightful thread over there that I just read,  with many viable possibilities speculated by folks who know a ton about this particular bird.  Something other than engine failure does seem like a distinct possibility though

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Yes, it was not a nice smooth lift off, the wing did rock a little. Looked more like if someone was taking off with a gusty crosswind, but there wasn't any gusty crosswind that night.

Thanks for your insight Richard. I am truly sorry that you had to see this. I am sure that it weighs heavily on you.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Shadrach

[Guitarmaster]

That is because typically in a vmc demonstration, the power is pulled to idle on one engine and the airspeed slowly bled off...  He was probably already below VMC and had instant engine failure.

Good point

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[Immelman]

Flight controls locked??

[HXG]

This is the worst case scenario. Likely left engine failure on takeoff. Only 1 way to survive:  Immediately and instantaneously kill/pull back on both throttles while going immediately nose down and hard (right) rudder to land straight ahead. Most lighter twin pilots know this, yet almost all fail this exercise in the sim. Unless the pilot took off with at least 5 knots above blue line with a gentle rotation and shallow initial climb out with his hands ready to immediately close both throttles and push nose down routinely, there is little else that can be done until you get into the more powerful twin turbines. 

This video is very sad and disturbing, but we can certainly learn from it  

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by HXG

[steingar]

My one pal who lost an engine on takeoff in his Aztec pulled power on the good engine and crashed on a city street.  Walked away from it, and the insurance company bought him a nice Twinkie.  Of course I was in that damn thing when it careened off the runway.

[exM20K]

Over on Beechtalk there is a long thread with contributions from Duke owners and experts.  While it looks like a VMC roll, it may just be a straight high-power stall.  The torque from 2x380HP apparently is sufficient to roll the aircraft over in a stall.

If just a departure stall, the reasons could be anything including: pilot medical incapacitation, seat latch failure, seat back failure, water in the belly (I learned there that the Duke can accumulate as much as 100 gallons through a door if sitting in the rain!), and on and on.

My takeaway is to reacquaint myself with how quickly things go bad in a twin, and it even looks quick from outside; imagine being in the pilot seat for a low-light departure and everything goes sideways/upside down?  Harrd tom recover from that unless you're expecting it.

-dan 

[HXG]

We’ll have to wait for the ntsb report to know if the left engine failed or not. But, the recovery attempt should remain the same. It’s a good lesson for single engine pilots as well since an engine failure soon after takeoff near stall speed needs an aggressive quick nose down (while coordinated) recovery that we have to always be ready for. 

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, HXG said:

We’ll have to wait for the ntsb report to know if the left engine failed or not. But, the recovery attempt should remain the same. It’s a good lesson for single engine pilots as well since an engine failure soon after takeoff near stall speed needs an aggressive quick nose down (while coordinated) recovery that we have to always be ready for. 

We will likely never know what would make someone lift off at and immediately pitch to what appears to be a 30° nose up in the first 1300' of runway.  It seems especially odd given the first single story obstacle is 2400' ahead and there are no major obstacles anywhere in first mile of the departure corridor over three stories.

[Andy95W]

56 minutes ago, exM20K said:

 

If just a departure stall, the reasons could be anything including: seat latch failure, seat back failure, water in the belly (I learned there that the Duke can accumulate as much as 100 gallons through a door if sitting in the rain!)

 

-Seat latch failure or seat back failure: that's a scary thought.  100 gallons of water rushing to the tail might be even scarier.

[DXB]

I re

11 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

-Seat latch failure or seat back failure: that's a scary thought.  

I recall someone here (@gsxrpilot maybe?) saying that he always holds the center post with the right hand after setting the throttle and starting the takeoff roll.  I think most of us keep our hand on the throttle.  The horrible video makes me want to revisit my SOP on this, irrespective of what actually caused the crash.  

[steingar]

Thing is, if the seat latch failed I like to think I'd have the presence of mind to unhand the yoke.  If the aircraft is trimmed properly it should fly on its merry while I work the problem.

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, steingar said:

Thing is, if the seat latch failed I like to think I'd have the presence of mind to unhand the yoke.  If the aircraft is trimmed properly it should fly on its merry while I work the problem.

improper trim is another possibility. About 5 secs from lift off to impact.  

[ArtVandelay]

Thing is, if the seat latch failed I like to think I'd have the presence of mind to unhand the yoke.  If the aircraft is trimmed properly it should fly on its merry while I work the problem.

I had this happen during my transition training at around 50’. I did exactly that, unhanded yoke,throttle. The plane probably won’t be trimmed properly because you’re accelerating, unless you’re constantly adjusting the trim, so you can’t fly hands off for long, but it should fly hands off for a few seconds allowing you to recover. Of course even if you were trimmed properly, most of us don’t have rudder trim, so you need to get your hands back on the yoke and feet back on the pedals.

 

 

Tom

[Shadrach]

17 hours ago, Austintatious said:

i have to admit I am a bit skeptical of what you claim about that photo...  That looks like a good 40 degrees and there arent even many jets that can hold that for very long.

You make an interesting point though... if he stalled with both engines running at full power, the torque (unless the duke has counter rotating props) will torque roll the aircraft.  Machen aerostars suffered from this... that is why they have vortex generators on the BOTTOM of the wing and one side of the rudder.

I don't think that angle looks unsustainable.  I was asked to do departure stalls during a flight review while I was breaking in newly installed cylinders. Even in a lowly 200hp F model the deck angles at which it would fly were impressive, only to be outdone by the left wing drop when it broke at full power. 

[Marauder]

I don't think that angle looks unsustainable.  I was asked to do departure stalls during a flight review while I was breaking in newly installed cylinders. Even in a lowly 200hp F model the deck angles at which it would fly were impressive, only to be outdone by the left wing drop when it broke at full power. 

In all the years I have owned my Mooney, any flight review I did had the obligatory departure stall. The usual power setting was around 75%. During a flight review back in 2015 I flew with an instructor who was experienced in Mooneys. He wasn’t satisfied with a 75% power setting and had me do one with full power.

I think I have seen only one of the Aspen unusual attitude chevrons during a normal stall practice. Caught my attention when several showed up.




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[Shadrach]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

In all the years I have owned my Mooney, any flight review I did had the obligatory departure stall. The usual power setting was around 75%. During a flight review back in 2015 I flew with an instructor who was experienced in Mooneys. He wasn’t satisfied with a 75% power setting and had me do one with full power.

I think I have seen only one of the Aspen unusual attitude chevrons during a normal stall practice. Caught my attention when several showed up.




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Did he make you take it all the way to the break or just the buffet? Full break, flaps and gear will get your blood flowing...  

[steingar]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

I had this happen during my transition training at around 50’. I did exactly that, unhanded yoke,throttle. The plane probably won’t be trimmed properly because you’re accelerating, unless you’re constantly adjusting the trim, so you can’t fly hands off for long, but it should fly hands off for a few seconds allowing you to recover. Of course even if you were trimmed properly, most of us don’t have rudder trim, so you need to get your hands back on the yoke and feet back on the pedals.

 

 

Tom

If I've done everything properly it should fly out at about 80 mph.  Not ideal of the engine, but it won't kill the airplane.  Mooneys are fairly stable in roll, I'd worry about loosing heading but I'm not worried about an uncommanded roll imperiling anything.  You'll loose your yaw control and probably yaw leftward some, I guess.  I still think it'd be stable for a few seconds allowing me to recover, so long as I don't yank on the yoke.  I've responded well to a couple of low altitude emergencies (remind me to tell you the one about my autopilot turning into a kilobit), so maybe I could handle it without killing everyone.

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

improper trim is another possibility. About 5 secs from lift off to impact.  

Yeah, but you'd think the pilot would have figured it out from the deck angle.  I've let improper trim get the best of me because of the J-bar.  Twins don't have those.