64 C interior pulled - let the fun begin!

[cliffy]

YUP!  And the only requirement is the outer covering material, not the padding or foam. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by cliffy

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Supercop0184 said:

So are all the 64Cs, CAR3?

I thought all Mooneys are CAR3 . . . . Well, probably not the Ultras.

EDIT--how nice! Everything I just typed out of the TCDS disappeared when I tried to drag-and-drop the file below. I'm not doing it again. Suffice it to say that the following models Certification Basis is shown as "CAR 3, effective November 1, 1949, as amended to May 18, 1954":

• M20
• M20A
• M20B
• M20C
• M20D
• M20E
• M20G

The M20F says "CAR 3, effective November 1, 1949, as amended to May 18, 1954 with paragraphs 3.109, 3.112, 3.115, 3.118, and 3.120 of CAR 3 effective May 15, 1956, as amended to Ocotber 1, 1959." 

The M20J carries the first reference to selected paragraphs of FAR 23: CAR 3, effective November 1, 1949, as amended to May 18, 1954, with paragraph 3.74 of Amendment 3-13 dated  August 25, 1955; a few other CAR 3 amended paragraphs, then "In lieu of corresponding CAR 3 paragraphs, where applicable--FAR 23, effective February 1, 1965; paragraph 23.29 as amended to March 1, 1978; and a few selected other paragraph numbers.

Each subsequent model seems to carry more references to FAR 23, but always listing selected paragraph numbers with revision dates for each one.

TCDS Mooney.pdf

Edited April 18, 2019 by Hank

[Supercop0184]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

YUP!  And the only requirement is the outer covering material, not the padding or foam. 

Ok outstanding - and the requirement is that they conform to some type of national burn standard? Does it matter which one when I notate it?

[Yetti]

I read through some of the ACs.....   Not regulatory....   One of the ACs made it sound like even though it was CAR3 you really should use the updated standards.

 

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac 23-2a.pdf

 

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-178.pdf

[Prior owner]

The Airtex insulation is not very expensive, it’s light, comes with a burn cert and is easy to work with. Comes in different thicknesses too...

Edited April 18, 2019 by PilotCoyote

[Supercop0184]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

I read through some of the ACs.....   Not regulatory....   One of the ACs made it sound like even though it was CAR3 you really should use the updated standards.

 

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac 23-2a.pdf

 

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-178.pdf

Should? or Must? 

I read up on your links - I read the burn requirements for part 23 - which is what they are recommending conforming to - the carpet and materials I want to use are both FMVSS302 compliant - the FAA art 23 requirement says no more than 2.5 inch burn per minute on one criteria, and no more than 4 inch burn per minute on another. the materials I am looking at, which are the FMVSS-302 - have no more tham 3.5 inch burn per minute. So, while it doesn't stand up to part 23, is it legal for use in a CAR3 airplane? 

[Supercop0184]

1 hour ago, PilotCoyote said:

The Airtex insulation is not very expensive, it’s light, comes with a burn cert and is easy to work with. Comes in different thicknesses too...

I am ordering this material for the plane - I believe its 72 dollars for half inch material - for a pretty decent size sheet - I need three. 

[carusoam]

Expect the original rules to be written around the usual things that would cause a problem back in the day...

Like a lit cigarette falling onto a seat... that allows you some time to find it before a fire can start...

Today’s sources of flames might be different... like an errant battery from a lithium ion battery powered device...

It took getting into the 70s before people realized falling asleep with a cigarette in bed was a really bad idea...

So consider the most flame resistant materials all the way through when you can...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Yetti]

23 minutes ago, Supercop0184 said:

Should? or Must? 

I read up on your links - I read the burn requirements for part 23 - which is what they are recommending conforming to - the carpet and materials I want to use are both FMVSS302 compliant - the FAA art 23 requirement says no more than 2.5 inch burn per minute on one criteria, and no more than 4 inch burn per minute on another. the materials I am looking at, which are the FMVSS-302 - have no more tham 3.5 inch burn per minute. So, while it doesn't stand up to part 23, is it legal for use in a CAR3 airplane? 

If the foam in your seat is on fire, do you still want to be in the plane?   ACs are should.   The brake fluid soaked cardboard that was in there before I replaced it with alum backed leather it was replaced with.  Leather is way less flammable.  I am surrounded by lots of leather.   the factory plastic panels are going to light off like fourth of july.   I used a propane torch for my flame test vs. a bunsen burner

[Prior owner]

1 hour ago, Supercop0184 said:

I am ordering this material for the plane - I believe its 72 dollars for half inch material - for a pretty decent size sheet - I need three. 

Way cheaper than the Dynamat I installed in my old Stovebolt truck!

[cliffy]

43.13 calls for only the outside covering material to be compliant with "some" national fire standard for CAR3 airplanes. 

43.13 does say that it is best to use Pt 23 compliant materials but NOT required. Also there is reference to placarding areas for No Smoking and where smoking is allowed. This is not difficult. You can comply with the CAR3 requirements or the Pt 23 BUT if you want to go Pt 23 you can not "certify" compliance yourself. It must be done in a qualified laboratory even though they give the burn rates. There is an AC  somewhere that shows the lab equipment and how it must be used to certify Pt 23 burn values. That's why you need the certs and not just a log book sign off.

FMVSS302 is a national standard. That's what I'm using. Like I mentioned before, now a days all material used in homes businesses, autos and such has to meet some national standard to be used in the USA today. You just have to find it. 

[Supercop0184]

2 minutes ago, cliffy said:

43.13 calls for only the outside covering material to be compliant with "some" national fire standard for CAR3 airplanes. 

43.13 does say that it is best to use Pt 23 compliant materials but NOT required. Also there is reference to placarding areas for No Smoking and where smoking is allowed. This is not difficult. You can comply with the CAR3 requirements or the Pt 23 BUT if you want to go Pt 23 you can not "certify" compliance yourself. It must be done in a qualified laboratory even though they give the burn rates. There is an AC  somewhere that shows the lab equipment and how it must be used to certify Pt 23 burn values. That's why you need the certs and not just a log book sign off.

FMVSS302 is a national standard. That's what I'm using. Like I mentioned before, now a days all material used in homes businesses, autos and such has to meet some national standard to be used in the USA today. You just have to find it. 

ok cool, I called the manufacturers of the materials and got documentation showing compliance with FMVSS302 - I also printed off FMVSS302 - I supposed I could log that I used materials tested and found to be in compliance of FMVSS302, and to see attached documents - and then place the fabric information, along with the FMVSS302, in the plane paperwork. 

[Supercop0184]

[cliffy]

YUP but be sure to talk to your IA who will be doing your next annual before you do this, He may need an explanation on how it is legal. He's ultimately the one who signs the airplane off as meeting all regulatory standards. You can actually sign off the refurbishment of interior fabrics as "preventive maintenance".  Item 11 in 14 CFR 43 Preventative Maintenance. Also download a copy of the 43.13 section I mentioned in an earlier post here and read it. There is a notation about surprising the IA without the proper documentation. 

You also just need to reference the manufacturer's statement about meeting the standard, No testing is required. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by cliffy

[Supercop0184]

On 4/16/2019 at 9:53 AM, PilotCoyote said:

Thanks for posting all the pics- It’s going to look great when you’re done. Is your roof vent working right now? I had to fix mine and then just did my headliner as well. I chose wool, but would choose vinyl if I had to do it over again....it’s too easy to end up with glue mistakes that can’t be fixed with wool.

might wanna take a look at your upper vent scat hoses- mine were rotten and rusted inside

 

Roof vent does, in fact, work. I’m amazed that everything is in working shape like it is. 

[Supercop0184]

On 4/16/2019 at 5:57 PM, carusoam said:

How is it working with the Airtex people?

Its been 20 years since I did interior work on My old M20C... they were a father / son team...

Just came across some notes from the conversation related to my order...

Plan on doing everything while you are in there, once it goes back, it probably won’t come out for another decade.

Antenna cables are a new standard lately... RG400 or something like that...

the cable that operates the roof vent needs to be updated to something that doesn’t rust and stick....

The drain tube that was Tygon / plasticized PVC... needs a better material... that stays flexible and connected...  the roof gets hot, the platicizer comes out of the clear tubing, the tubing gets stiff and brittle... and doesn’t drain properly in the end...

Other than that... everything looks great...  proper tape to keep the wind out, proper insulation to keep it warm, and add stereo wires for your back-seaters...   don’t forget a USB power plug while you are in there....

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

I’d love to have a usb Jack in the back. Hmmmm wonder how. Com antenna cables look pretty fresh - will there be a noticeable benefit to change out with the RG400?

[cctsurf]

23 minutes ago, Supercop0184 said:

Hmmmm wonder how. Com antenna cables look pretty fresh - will there be a noticeable benefit to change out with the RG400?

At the frequencies our vhf radios operate (around 100mhz), probably not.  RG400 has an attenuation of 4.1db per 100ft.  RG58 has an attenuation of 4.4db per 100ft.  ( https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=rg400-coaxial-cable )  You're talking tenths of decibels at the distances we're running.

If you plan on installing a Garmin nav/com, you might be worth it 'cause they recommend it...

[cliffy]

IIRC there is also a comment in the authorization documents for WAAS GPS that requires RG400 (double shield coax)  Its the big RTC document (may not have the title correct but I did read it at one time a few years ago).  The earlier non-WAAS units (GPS 155 TSO) only specified RG58. 

[carusoam]

@Marauder had mentioned the RG400 and some benefits... See if he has the logic...

i would be lucky to parrot his depth of knowledge properly...

Best regards,

-a-

[Supercop0184]

On 4/17/2019 at 10:56 AM, hmasing said:

Don't forget that SB208 includes pulling the inspection panels under the back seat to inspect the frame underneath the seating area as well!

I found some interesting stuff accumulated under there over 53 years.  

I thought i replied to this but maybe not - did that part today, found a couple of screws and a wrapped to an old stick of gum. Woo hoo

[Supercop0184]

On 4/18/2019 at 6:57 AM, pilot_jb said:

Sent you a PM

You have that file? I’d love to have it on my new seats.

[dcrogers11]

I went through the same process as you on the interior replacement on my 64C.  It's a huge project, but there is no feeling like sitting in your new, fresh cockpit.  I see you're in Texas near me so heat is something we deal with.  When I redid my upholstery, I added a 12v plug-in in the luggage compartment for a ice cooler A/C.  That way, I was not stringing wire from the front to the back every time I wanted to use it.  I added an AUX switch to the front panel so that I could switch it on and off easily.  Of course this was done by my A&P and properly documented when we did the panel upgrade.  Just a thought.

Don

Edited April 21, 2019 by dcrogers11

[dcrogers11]

Also a good time to add headphone jacks to the back seat if this hasn't been mentioned.

Don

[Supercop0184]

1 hour ago, dcrogers11 said:

Also a good time to add headphone jacks to the back seat if this hasn't been mentioned.

Don

Already got em! Handy for sure!

[Prior owner]

8 hours ago, dcrogers11 said:

I went through the same process as you on the interior replacement on my 64C.  It's a huge project, but there is no feeling like sitting in your new, fresh cockpit.  I see you're in Texas near me so heat is something we deal with.  When I redid my upholstery, I added a 12v plug-in in the luggage compartment for a ice cooler A/C.  That way, I was not stringing wire from the front to the back every time I wanted to use it.  I added an AUX switch to the front panel so that I could switch it on and off easily.  Of course this was done by my A&P and properly documented when we did the panel upgrade.  Just a thought.

Don

Don, would love to see a pic of the rest of your panel..