GFC500- It's here!!!

[carusoam]

Greg,

We have an Stec guy on MS...

He has appeared in this thread...

He was giving some technical explanations and some part pricing and other Mooney friendly info...

Best regards,

-a-

[flyingcheesehead]

On 5/15/2019 at 7:54 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Exactly what I'm thinking... and a better autopilot 

The S-TEC 3100 *should* be as good as a GFC 500, and they seem to check the same feature boxes, but... It's just not. There have been some serious problems getting them to work in some types. I know of one shop that has had so much trouble with a 3100 in a 421 that they may pull it out in favor of a Garmin autopilot and eat the install cost. 

I hope S-TEC gets their stuff together, because competition is good and the 3100 looks like a nice autopilot and a great option for those who already had older S-TEC autopilots, but it's not looking very good right now.

[ArtVandelay]

The S-TEC 3100 *should* be as good as a GFC 500, and they seem to check the same feature boxes, but... It's just not. There have been some serious problems getting them to work in some types. I know of one shop that has had so much trouble with a 3100 in a 421 that they may pull it out in favor of a Garmin autopilot and eat the install cost. 
I hope S-TEC gets their stuff together, because competition is good and the 3100 looks like a nice autopilot and a great option for those who already had older S-TEC autopilots, but it's not looking very good right now.

It would be interesting to know what the problem was.
I wonder if the 30 year old servo technology will handicap the 3100? Garmin servos 2.5lbs lighter and they might have quicker response.


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

The S-TEC 3100 *should* be as good as a GFC 500, and they seem to check the same feature boxes, but... It's just not. There have been some serious problems getting them to work in some types. I know of one shop that has had so much trouble with a 3100 in a 421 that they may pull it out in favor of a Garmin autopilot and eat the install cost. 

I hope S-TEC gets their stuff together, because competition is good and the 3100 looks like a nice autopilot and a great option for those who already had older S-TEC autopilots, but it's not looking very good right now.

Can you provide details? All I've seen are examples where the 3100 is working great.

On paper the 3100 is equivalent to the GFC600, a step above the GFC500.

[Bob_Belville]

31 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Can you provide details? All I've seen are examples where the 3100 is working great.

On paper the 3100 is equivalent to the GFC600, a step above the GFC500.

My hangar neighbor has had a 3100 in his Cherokee 6 for several months. He also has a GTN 750 and an Aspen. The issue he had has been with the Aspen which apparently needs updating to provide all the info to the 3100 to take advantage of the newer features like alt pre-select. I think he is very happy with the STEC itself. Wayne says he's been told the Aspen has received so many MAX upgrade orders that getting the software updated is being delayed. 

[flyingcheesehead]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Can you provide details? All I've seen are examples where the 3100 is working great.

On paper the 3100 is equivalent to the GFC600, a step above the GFC500.

Here's the list from a BeechTalk user with a Cessna 340:

_______________________________________________________

1) FD - fails on takeoff roll 
2) Trim - slow...too slow and I get annunciation issues
3) Baloon during all flap configurations (I think this is because of the trim speed issue)
4) Baloon during landing gear (I think this is because of the trim speed issue)
5) Will not track the pink line....I am 200 feet to the right 
6) Will not turn coordinated like it should 
7) Yaw Damp is not effective 
8) Bad tail wag 
9) heading seems to hunt. When you turn one direction, it turns then stops, then turns, then stops 
10) Bugs are only one way 

_______________________________________________________

Also, the GFC 500 and GFC 600 are pretty much equivalent "on paper" except for the servos and the price tag. Garmin has said that the 600 is required for higher performance airplanes, but it seems the main difference is not in airplane performance but wallet performance.

Edited May 18, 2019 by flyingcheesehead

[aviatoreb]

24 minutes ago, flyingcheesehead said:

... but it seems the main difference is not in airplane performance but wallet performance.

Love it and spot on.

[ArtVandelay]

Also, the GFC 500 and GFC 600 are pretty much equivalent "on paper" except for the servos and the price tag. Garmin has said that the 600 is required for higher performance airplanes, but it seems the main difference is not in airplane performance but wallet performance.

Not quite, the 600 doesn’t need the G5/G3X, it has it’s own circuitry.

If you don’t have or want G5/G3X, then the 600 is not so much more.

I think if I was installing the TXI, the 600 maybe be a better fit. Obviously TXI/600 is more than G3X/500 combo, but if you want the best.

 

 

 

Tom

[gsxrpilot]

55 minutes ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Here's the list from a BeechTalk user with a Cessna 340:

_______________________________________________________

1) FD - fails on takeoff roll 
2) Trim - slow...too slow and I get annunciation issues
3) Baloon during all flap configurations (I think this is because of the trim speed issue)
4) Baloon during landing gear (I think this is because of the trim speed issue)
5) Will not track the pink line....I am 200 feet to the right 
6) Will not turn coordinated like it should 
7) Yaw Damp is not effective 
8) Bad tail wag 
9) heading seems to hunt. When you turn one direction, it turns then stops, then turns, then stops 
10) Bugs are only one way 

_______________________________________________________

Also, the GFC 500 and GFC 600 are pretty much equivalent "on paper" except for the servos and the price tag. Garmin has said that the 600 is required for higher performance airplanes, but it seems the main difference is not in airplane performance but wallet performance.

Thanks. That could be the autopilot or it could be the shop that installed it, problems with the original servos, etc. It's obviously not causing these problems with all of their installs.

And if the GFC500 and 600 were equivalent except for cost, you wouldn't see @donkaye and several others on this board pushing Garmin so hard to approve the GFC600 for Mooneys.

[donkaye]

On 5/18/2019 at 10:39 AM, gsxrpilot said:

And if the GFC500 and 600 were equivalent except for cost, you wouldn't see @donkaye and several others on this board pushing Garmin so hard to approve the GFC600 for Mooneys.

While I wish the software for the GFC 500 could be included in the G500TXi, having it as part of the G5 provides some redundancy should the TXi fail, as the GFC 500 will continue to operate off of the number 1 NAV.  Regarding the GFC 500 vs the GFC 600; functionally, I don't see much difference except maybe more robust servos and CWS on the GFC 600.  Operational utility I think goes to the GFC 500 because of the GMC 507 Controller.  It has most of the functionality of the GCU 485 Controller whereas the GFC 600 does not.  My setup is shown below.  I'm not sure if I will be using the GCU 485 or the GMC 507 for control. They sync functions together.   I thought about selling the GCU 485 after only 4 months of having it (I didn't think the GFC 500 would become available so soon), but decided to keep it for redundancy, since I already had it.

I won't be pushing for GFC 600 approval for the Mooney.

[super6]

keep me in mind

[flyingcheesehead]

On 5/18/2019 at 12:27 PM, ArtVandelay said:

Not quite, the 600 doesn’t need the G5/G3X, it has it’s own circuitry.

If you don’t have or want G5/G3X, then the 600 is not so much more.

The price difference between the GFC 500 and 600 starts at $10K. The price of the G5 is about a quarter of that.

On 5/18/2019 at 12:39 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Thanks. That could be the autopilot or it could be the shop that installed it, problems with the original servos, etc. It's obviously not causing these problems with all of their installs.

And if the GFC500 and 600 were equivalent except for cost, you wouldn't see @donkaye and several others on this board pushing Garmin so hard to approve the GFC600 for Mooneys.

I know of a 421 at a different shop that is also having serious issues with the 3100. I don't know if it's something specific to the cabin class Twin Cessnas, but it's bad, and Genesys appears to be unable to help them resolve it so far. I hope they get things worked out... But I wouldn't go for a 3100 over the Garmin offerings unless I had a plane that Garmin didn't have the STC for and wasn't working on it, or it already had the S-TEC servos and there would thus be a significant cost advantage to installing the 3100.

[N231BN]

I know of a 421 at a different shop that is also having serious issues with the 3100. I don't know if it's something specific to the cabin class Twin Cessnas, but it's bad, and Genesys appears to be unable to help them resolve it so far. I hope they get things worked out... But I wouldn't go for a 3100 over the Garmin offerings unless I had a plane that Garmin didn't have the STC for and wasn't working on it, or it already had the S-TEC servos and there would thus be a significant cost advantage to installing the 3100.

The 55x we had in our 414 was never quite capable of flying the aircraft. It could not handle intercepts or configuration changes without massive overshoots.

[flyingcheesehead]

On 5/19/2019 at 3:02 PM, N231BN said:

On 5/19/2019 at 12:48 PM, flyingcheesehead said:

I know of a 421 at a different shop that is also having serious issues with the 3100. I don't know if it's something specific to the cabin class Twin Cessnas, but it's bad, and Genesys appears to be unable to help them resolve it so far. I hope they get things worked out... But I wouldn't go for a 3100 over the Garmin offerings unless I had a plane that Garmin didn't have the STC for and wasn't working on it, or it already had the S-TEC servos and there would thus be a significant cost advantage to installing the 3100.

The 55x we had in our 414 was never quite capable of flying the aircraft. It could not handle intercepts or configuration changes without massive overshoots.

Never? Yikes... Because that sounds like S-TEC may not make these problems go away completely.

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Never? Yikes... Because that sounds like S-TEC may not make these problems go away completely.

The STEC55x was rate based, the STEC3100 is Attitude based - it will be a world of difference in how it captures.