gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, gacoon said: gsxrpilot said: The PFD Max will not require a standby AI, Turn Coordinator, or DG Mlm20c said: The max pfd still requires a backup AI, ASI, and altimeter. So who is right, does the PFD Max require a backup Attitude Indicator, or not? Part of the problem is that the MAX hasn't been released yet and neither has the documentation. We'll know for sure when the installation guides are released. Currently all that is documented is this statement: "backup indicators are eliminated with MFD install". I was told at OSH that referred to the ASI and Altimeter. But it could also include the AI. We'll find out when it's released. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) None of the new Aspen “max” lineup requires keeping the old AI. They changed the way they account for pitot/static failure (icing) by using the gps GS input to aid the ahrs. And they used the new FAA STC process like Garmin with the G5. No more old AI required now. Edited January 28, 2019 by Ragsf15e 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) I’ve been reading a lot about these things recently because I’m also trying to decide between G5s and E5. E5 is definitely ifr. Is it an HSi? Well, find me a definition of an HSI... it has a compass heading card with a course needle overlayed which seems to be the important part. The course needle doesn’t have a CDI, the CDI is at the bottom of the screen. Doesn’t seem like a big deal... and yes, I’ve got a few thousand hours of military flying with an HSI, but this doesn’t bother me... maybe it should? Both glide slope and lateral deviation are shown, so no other OBS/CDI instrument is required. I have an STEC 30, and I’m pretty sure no ea100 or acu is required to use that with the E5. That part I’m still working out. It will integrate with my 430W, my STEC30, and (with upgrade) my GTX345. I do like the G5s redundancy, but no adsb and many less add on features than the aspen. still a tough decision... https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Aspens-E5-Low-Cost-EFIS-Now-STC-Certified-231978-1.html Edited January 28, 2019 by Ragsf15e Quote
MIm20c Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said: None of the new Aspen “max” lineup requires keeping the old AI. They changed the way they account for pitot/static failure (icing) by using the gps GS input to aid the ahrs. And they used the new FAA STC process like Garmin with the G5. No more old AI required now. The new max pfd is being certified like the new txi/g1000 displays are. A backup trio is still needed which could be a L3 500 or a max mfd w/external battery. I would think it would be a simple field approval to not need a backup AI if the rest of the six pack was retained. 1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said: I’ve been reading a lot about these things recently because I’m also trying to decide between G5s and E5. E5 is definitely ifr. Is it an HSi? Well, find me a definition of an HSI... it has a compass heading card with a course needle overlayed which seems to be the important part. The course needle doesn’t have a CDI, the CDI is at the bottom of the screen. Doesn’t seem like a big deal... and yes, I’ve got a few thousand hours of military flying with an HSI, but this doesn’t bother me... maybe it should? Both glide slope and lateral deviation are shown, so no other OBS/CDI instrument is required. I have an STEC 30, and I’m pretty sure no ea100 or acu is required to use that with the E5. That part I’m still working out. It will integrate with my 430W, my STEC30, and (with upgrade) my GTX345. I do like the G5s redundancy, but no adsb and many less add on features than the aspen. You will still need the acu for your 30 AP. The newer TT/3100 etc AP will not need the analog interface. I agree with everything you said about the E5. I really like it and consider it a huge step above a normal DG. I’m really glad they did not strip away the blue diamond. I find that very useful while I’m hand flying the plane. Edited January 28, 2019 by MIm20c Quote
Browncbr1 Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) I fly dual g5 and also aspen pro.. (the older screen, not newer E5). I like the G5’s (and put my money on them in my mooney) because they have battery backup, redundancy, and price. I don’t have a fancy alt preselect autopilot, so VS select as on the aspen is useless. However, I use that feature a lot on the baron, which has an aspen driving a stec55x. I don’t know if this feature appears or not when G5’s are connected to an alt preselect AP or not. I bet it will when connected to a GFC500. The G5’s drive many autopilots nicely with built in GPSswhich converts the heading signal, so if your AP is heading only, you get more AP capability. I think it is possible to setup the aspen GPSs to modulate the heading signal to the AP in the same way, but not sure. On the baron, you actually have to make the selection from heading to nav/nav GPSs on the autopilot panel, not the aspen. On the G5, they are selected right on the G5. the older aspen screen sucks compared to the G5’s.. the newer aspen screen I’ve heard is much better. The other feature differences have already been mentioned by others. Edited January 28, 2019 by Browncbr1 Quote
Oldguy Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said: I think it is possible to setup the aspen GPSs to modulate the heading signal to the AP in the same way, but not sure. On the baron, you actually have to make the selection from heading to nav/nav GPSs on the autopilot panel, not the aspen. I know on my Aspen PFD, the GPSS drives the KAP 150 A/P. Set the King for HDG, toggle the GPSS on the Aspen, and off it goes. I would guess the STEC on the Baron is driven by different inputs than the King. Quote
Stanton R Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 This is the information I got from my Aspen rep less then a week ago. E5: 1: Ifr compatible 2: you can remove the horizon and DG unless the horizon is used for the autopilot(see note 4) 3: The ACU will be required for most older autopilots and navigation receivers 4: If you have an autopilot that uses the horizon you can use the EA100. 1000 PRO Max PFD: all the same requirements of the E5 with the addition of needing to keep the horizon. The thoughts at Oshkosh was that since the E5 didn't a horizon that the 1000 max pro PFD would also not need one. Aspen as since been told that is not the case. The 1000 PRO max PFD has the same requirements at the 1000 pro PFD. If you install the 1000 pro max PFD and MFD you can get rid of all the flight instruments except the compass. 2 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 I think I like the Aspen slightly more than the dual G5s due to their upgrade capability, however one thing bothers me a little, and it probably shouldn’t. I don’t want another “wart” on the top of my airplane. The aspen rsu goes on the outside because it provides more than a compass heading sensor. It also has a temperature probe and gps antenna. It’s required and is similar to putting another gps antenna on top the airplane. G5s mount their sensor inside the fuselage since it’s just a compass heading sensor. The G5 redundancy is nice, but I plan to put in an AV20s if I do the aspen. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Stanton R said: This is the information I got from my Aspen rep less then a week ago. E5: 1: Ifr compatible 2: you can remove the horizon and DG unless the horizon is used for the autopilot(see note 4) 3: The ACU will be required for most older autopilots and navigation receivers 4: If you have an autopilot that uses the horizon you can use the EA100. 1000 PRO Max PFD: all the same requirements of the E5 with the addition of needing to keep the horizon. The thoughts at Oshkosh was that since the E5 didn't a horizon that the 1000 max pro PFD would also not need one. Aspen as since been told that is not the case. The 1000 PRO max PFD has the same requirements at the 1000 pro PFD. If you install the 1000 pro max PFD and MFD you can get rid of all the flight instruments except the compass. I believe you, although I think it would be pretty silly to install an E5, remove your AI and vacuum system, decide to upgrade the E5 (software), then be required to reinstall your AI?! That would be awesome. Our FAA at work? 2 Quote
gacoon Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 14 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: Part of the problem is that the MAX hasn't been released yet and neither has the documentation. We'll know for sure when the installation guides are released. Currently all that is documented is this statement: "backup indicators are eliminated with MFD install". I was told at OSH that referred to the ASI and Altimeter. But it could also include the AI. We'll find out when it's released. I just got off the phone with ASPEN. 1) Standalone Pro MAX PFD 1000 - requires backup AI, Altimeter and Airspeed 2) Pro MAX PFD with Pro MAX MFD - no backup instruments required Quote
Marauder Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 I believe you, although I think it would be pretty silly to install an E5, remove your AI and vacuum system, decide to upgrade the E5 (software), then be required to reinstall your AI?! That would be awesome. Our FAA at work? Yep. Because it doesn’t meet some “standard”, the limitations apply. Just like the G5 as a backup. I think it is technically only certified as a backup for the Garmin glass. Yet we see it backing up Aspens. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how an E5 or G5 can replace your AI and not need a backup. But the logic is that you can legally fly with a mechanical AI and not have a backup. And these devices are okay to replace a mechanical AI based on that original certification. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote
Amelia Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 I love my AspenPro1000. Best thing:it isn’t Garmin. (I dislike the way Garmin only plays nice with Garmin. If I strike oil in the back yard, I’m upgrading that Aspen. 3 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Marauder said: Yep. Because it doesn’t meet some “standard”, the limitations apply. Just like the G5 as a backup. I think it is technically only certified as a backup for the Garmin glass. Yet we see it backing up Aspens. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how an E5 or G5 can replace your AI and not need a backup. But the logic is that you can legally fly with a mechanical AI and not have a backup. And these devices are okay to replace a mechanical AI based on that original certification. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro How’s this... I put in the aspen E5, remove vacuum and AI. Then i replace turn coordinator with G5. All legal so far since Aspen E5 doesn’t require backup and the G5 can replace AI or TC... Then I “upgrade” the aspen to a “Pro Max” via software to “make it better” and the entire panel is illegal! The Aspen “Pro” now requires a backup AI, and the G5 isn’t allowed to be a backup AI, only primary or a TC. That’s so ridiculous that it might actually be true! Edited January 28, 2019 by Ragsf15e Quote
Cruiser Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 19 hours ago, ArtVandelay said: Twin Aspens are $19000 plus EA100 Aspen has the twin PFD/MFD Evolution 2000 system priced at $12,995 right now on their website. Quote
Marauder Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 How’s this... I put in the aspen E5, remove vacuum and AI. Then i replace turn coordinator with G5. All legal so far since Aspen E5 doesn’t require backup and the G5 can replace AI or TC... Then I “upgrade” the aspen to a “Pro Max” via software to “make it better” and the entire panel is illegal! The Aspen “Pro” now requires a backup AI, and the G5 isn’t allowed to be a backup AI, only primary or a TC. That’s so ridiculous that it might actually be true! Now you’re getting it! According to these regulations, my quarter century of IFR flying with devices with MTBF measured in hundreds of hours is safer than flying behind electrons with MTBF measured in tens of thousands of hours. And they call it progress...Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 Aspen has the twin PFD/MFD Evolution 2000 system priced at $12,995 right now on their website. I was quoting the Pro Max versions.Tom Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 3 hours ago, gacoon said: I just got off the phone with ASPEN. 1) Standalone Pro MAX PFD 1000 - requires backup AI, Altimeter and Airspeed 2) Pro MAX PFD with Pro MAX MFD - no backup instruments required Well that takes away the major benefit of the E5 over the 2xG5s... no upgrading the E5 in the future unless you reinstall an appropriate backup AI or make it a dual Aspen setup ($$). IE, can’t install the E5 now and upgrade it to the HSI and ADSB in/out when the $$ is available without other significant changes. Dang, guess I’m back to the 2xG5s. 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: How’s this... I put in the aspen E5, remove vacuum and AI. Then i replace turn coordinator with G5. All legal so far since Aspen E5 doesn’t require backup and the G5 can replace AI or TC... Then I “upgrade” the aspen to a “Pro Max” via software to “make it better” and the entire panel is illegal! The Aspen “Pro” now requires a backup AI, and the G5 isn’t allowed to be a backup AI, only primary or a TC. That’s so ridiculous that it might actually be true! There are lots of Aspens flying around with G5's backing them up. Mine will be up for sale when the MAX units become available. I'll add the Aspen MFD and dump the G5. Quote
Marauder Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 There are lots of Aspens flying around with G5's backing them up. Mine will be up for sale when the MAX units become available. I'll add the Aspen MFD and dump the G5. What’s that vacuum gauge hanging around for?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: There are lots of Aspens flying around with G5's backing them up. Mine will be up for sale when the MAX units become available. I'll add the Aspen MFD and dump the G5. Panel looks great, and probably very reliable, but maybe not meeting the letter of the law for a backup AI? The G5 STC says it cannot be a required backup... not saying I agree, but... Quote
Niko182 Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Panel looks great, and probably very reliable, but maybe not meeting the letter of the law for a backup AI? The G5 STC says it cannot be a required backup... not saying I agree, but... In other posts he stated he got a field approval. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 In other posts he stated he got a field approval. That is why all of this stuff becomes ridiculous. The G5 was not an option for my Aspen’s backup according to our FSDO, yet others will approve it.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 16 minutes ago, Marauder said: What’s that vacuum gauge hanging around for? Speed brakes 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Panel looks great, and probably very reliable, but maybe not meeting the letter of the law for a backup AI? The G5 STC says it cannot be a required backup... not saying I agree, but... An STC is not "law". It's permission to do something or use something. There are lots of other ways to get permission. An STC is just one of them. It's especially easy to get other permission when the STC was obviously rushed to market with the absolute minimum approvals needed to meet marketing deadlines. When there are such obvious inconsistencies, I'm not one to just throw up my hands and say, "oh well, the STC says." 1 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 28, 2019 Report Posted January 28, 2019 28 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: There are lots of Aspens flying around with G5's backing them up. Mine will be up for sale when the MAX units become available. I'll add the Aspen MFD and dump the G5. And to make room for the MFD where will you put that JPI900? Upgrade it to a 930 and move it over to the right of the GPS where it belongs? 1 Quote
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