Ramp Fee Question for Attorneys

[cliffy]

What if one just refused to pay the ramp fee? What could they do?

If the fees aren't published, what would their legal position be?

If that's the game then they could just charge what ever to whom ever they want at any time and you're forced to pay?

Sounds like a civil suit to recover payment to me being a layman. You wanna sue me for $50 go ahead. 

Really curious as to their LEGAL position on this. What could they do? Seize the airplane on their ramp? Don't think so. 

[vorlon1]

Mechanics Lein? ..know that is a stretch...

[jetdriven]

a mechanics lien is not valid unless he has unbroken possession of the aircraft.

[Mooneymite]

I doubt an FBO would bother with legal action for not paying a BS fee.  Instead they'd remember you. If it is a chain (like Signature) you'd have trouble buying fuel/parking at any of their locations.

[gsengle]

Theft of services. Call the police, block the airplane with a truck...


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[cliffy]

2 hours ago, gsengle said:

Theft of services. Call the police, block the airplane with a truck...


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Is this a guess or a legal opinion?    How could it be "theft of services" when nothing was ever published about the service received?

Can McDonalds just say that as you pay your bill you now owe $20 for walking into their store and if you leave they detain you and call the cops?

What am I missing? I'm serious. What would limit any service company from just saying you owe me this and if you don't pay I hold you for the police? 

[Yetti]

Back when the Baby Bells were around.   Southwest Bell used to call me on my ISDN line and market products.   I thought it was bad form for me to pay them money and then they call me and waste my time.   So I sent them an email and said I was going to charge them for the next call.   They called, so I sent an invoice.   They did not know what to do with it, I think I ended up talking to the CFO.   Never got another call.  Anyone can send an invoice.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Yetti

[GDGR]

I’d be willing to bet they could send it to collections, similar to privately owned city parking lots. 

You don’t pay the parking fee, and get caught, you end up with a ticket on your dash. You aren’t legally obligated to pay it, and you could take them to court, where they would have to prove damages incurred from you parking there. 

Not, they just sell it to a third party collection agency, and you get harassed for months on end, with a potential credit rating hit. 

Thats my best guess. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by CDNflyby

[cliffy]

So any entity could charge what ever they wanted, say just for walking in the door, or because you are wearing a blue shirt and you don't pay and they send it to collections  HMMMMM   

Its not the fee I'm talking about but the process legality. Can anyone just say you owe me this amount for walking in the door and we have to pay or go to collections? 

My point being, if they can do this what is there to stop anyone from charging anything they want for any reason, value received or not, and making you pay, for any reason they deem necessary?  

[GDGR]

25 minutes ago, cliffy said:

So any entity could charge what ever they wanted, say just for walking in the door, or because you are wearing a blue shirt and you don't pay and they send it to collections  HMMMMM   

Its not the fee I'm talking about but the process legality. Can anyone just say you owe me this amount for walking in the door and we have to pay or go to collections? 

My point being, if they can do this what is there to stop anyone from charging anything they want for any reason, value received or not, and making you pay, for any reason they deem necessary?  

Think you’re getting pretty petty and vague. Are you aware that there’s a ramp fee prior to landing? More than likely. 

Is landing there, and knowing said ramp fee information, reasonable cause for requirement to pay? Possibly. 

Why not test your theory and let us know how it goes. 

Conversely, next time you buy and airline ticket, see if you can not pay the “airport improvement fees” that are typically added on. Same thing. 

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, jetdriven said:

a mechanics lien is not valid unless he has unbroken possession of the aircraft.

Depends on the state.

[Cyril Gibb]

8 hours ago, CDNflyby said:

Think you’re getting pretty petty and vague. Are you aware that there’s a ramp fee prior to landing? More than likely. 

Is landing there, and knowing said ramp fee information, reasonable cause for requirement to pay? Possibly. 

Why not test your theory and let us know how it goes. 

Conversely, next time you buy and airline ticket, see if you can not pay the “airport improvement fees” that are typically added on. Same thing. 

I don’t think that @cliffy is being petty OR vague.  You’re analogy of the airline ticket isn’t what he’s talking about.  We know in advance all the fees when we buy the ticket.

A closer analogy is when you show up at the airport with your airline ticket and you’re told that you need to pay an unpublished and unposted additional fee before boarding.

[GDGR]

3 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

I don’t think that @cliffy is being petty OR vague.  You’re analogy of the airline ticket isn’t what he’s talking about.  We know in advance all the fees when we buy the ticket.

A closer analogy is when you show up at the airport with your airline ticket and you’re told that you need to pay an unpublished and unposted additional fee before boarding.

That’s my point, Cyril. Landing fees are available and known. In your example, you’re stating that it’s an unknown. 

If that’s the case, and someone told me that there was a fee that was not listed anywhere, I would specifically ask where this information is listed. If it’s not public known knowledge, then yes, they can pound sand. Airports in Canada all have fees (if any) documented, so you’re aware. 

[GDGR]

Some cure for insomnia leagalese:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_compliance/media/airports-rates-charges-policy-with-amendments.pdf

[midlifeflyer]

16 hours ago, jetdriven said:

a mechanics lien is not valid unless he has unbroken possession of the aircraft.

Depends on the state.

Personally, I've never been charged a special ramp fee because I'm an attorney.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Why the drama?  Just call ahead and ask about fees.  The FBO will tell you or email you a fee schedule. At least they have for me.  But I’m not an attorney. 

I have frequently felt undercharged at big city posh FBOs.  I’d fly my Mooney in, get the red carpet treatment, buy 15 gallons of fuel and pay less for overnight parking than a car in the parking structure.  

[Cyril Gibb]

19 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Why the drama?  Just call ahead and ask about fees.  The FBO will tell you or email you a fee schedule. At least they have for me.  But I’m not an attorney. 

I have frequently felt undercharged at big city posh FBOs.  I’d fly my Mooney in, get the red carpet treatment, buy 15 gallons of fuel and pay less for overnight parking than a car in the parking structure.  

You are correct, but I’ve been blindsided by not asking the right questions.  I’ve asked FBOs about their fees without asking about other airport fees. My mistake.  Now I specifically ask about any other fees or surcharges they are aware of.  One surprise biggy was the $120US customs clearance fee at KFRG.

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Why the drama?  Just call ahead and ask about fees.  The FBO will tell you or email you a fee schedule. At least they have for me.  But I’m not an attorney. 

I have frequently felt undercharged at big city posh FBOs.  I’d fly my Mooney in, get the red carpet treatment, buy 15 gallons of fuel and pay less for overnight parking than a car in the parking structure.  

Often the big city FBOs publish overnight parking rates and fuel prices, sometimes with a note of "one night free with XX gallons purchased." Then when I stay overnight, there are four additional fees on the bill . . . . Or I drop in for lunch, stay an hour and a half and am asked for the full overnight fee and a handling fee.

This type of treatment makes pilots not go back to eat, and often leads to closure of on-field restaurants due to loss of fly-in business.

Maybe we should all call the businesses we visited, and tell them that the FBO added $25.00 to our lunch bill, so we will not be coming back again. Then the business could pressure the FBO directly (along with face-to-face pilot complaints) and the airport manager. When paying that $20 parking fee and the $5 handling fee for them to do no handling and only provide a walkway from the ramp to the sidewalk, I always comment negatively and when in a bad mood, vigorously, with comments about never coming back.

If only there was a way to spread the word, somewhere to post a true comment that wouldn't get taken down, leaving only the positive ones behind . . . .

[Cyril Gibb]

It would be great to have a website for airport/fbo fees similar to 100ll.com for fuel prices.

[EricJ]

Often airports with FBOs that charge parking fees also have free transient parking.   If it is a towered field, just ask the tower (or ground, depending) where the free transient parking is.  If it is an untowered field, call ahead and ask where the free parking is.

Some airports only charge ramp/parking fees if you stay overnight.  Lake Havasu City is like this, and has a box on the light pole like some public campgrounds where you drop your payment in an envelope and put it in the box.

Since there is such a diversity of policies and methods at various airports, it seems reasonable to expect that one should research the situation before going somewhere, rather than complain afterwards.   Just IMHO.

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by EricJ

[toto]

For what it's worth, I've found that policy is often different from the human sitting at the desk. If I call a high-priced FBO and say "look, I'm coming in for two hours and I'd much rather use your FBO than the one across town, but your $50 fee is killing me," it's not at all unusual to hear "no problem - I'll be here when you arrive, and we'll waive the fees for your quick stop."

That doesn't make the high fees acceptable, but it does make me more willing to buy a bunch of gas from them next time. And to recommend the FBO to others. 

I'll also note that I've had very good success getting ramp fees waived by buying fuel from a cheap SS pump. FBOs will typically do this even if they don't own or operate the SS. 

[Bob - S50]

While I have not needed to do so yet, in the future, if I need to park at an unfamiliar airport, I plan to send an email asking about fees.  I can then take the response with me.  If they try to charge me more I can then show them the email.  I'll detail when I'll arrive, when I'll leave, the type of aircraft, and whether or not I'll buy fuel.

[kerry]

I remember reading a post sometime ago on mooneyspace of a pilot dropping off a passenger at a airport in Sacramento.  When the pilot started the plane for departure a FBO truck pulled in front of the plane and demanded a ramp fee.  I'm not sure of the laws either but impeding a running airplane on a ramp of a federal funding airport seems illegal.  I always call ahead and try to avoid airports with ramp fees.  Ethically I feel I should pay the FBO if asked but I also would like know if there's legal justification.   

[gsxrpilot]

I certainly don't mind paying for service. And I like to think I'm a good tipper. But I am very frustrated by the lack of transparency at airports here in the US. Even calling the FBO ahead of time doesn't always get the info. You often have to know how to ask the question. 

I always call ahead. But I've called ahead many times and asked what the fees/costs would be for me to land, stay over night, leave the next day. How much is the fuel and is there a minimum purchase to wave any fees. I'll get all the information, but then I might ask "is there any security or airport fee?" And they'll come back and say, "well yes, there is a $25 or $5 or something... airport security fee."

If you don't know how to ask, they won't tell you. That, I have a problem with.

[DualRatedFlyer]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

I certainly don't mind paying for service. And I like to think I'm a good tipper. But I am very frustrated by the lack of transparency at airports here in the US. Even calling the FBO ahead of time doesn't always get the info. You often have to know how to ask the question. 

I always call ahead. But I've called ahead many times and asked what the fees/costs would be for me to land, stay over night, leave the next day. How much is the fuel and is there a minimum purchase to wave any fees. I'll get all the information, but then I might ask "is there any security or airport fee?" And they'll come back and say, "well yes, there is a $25 or $5 or something... airport security fee."

If you don't know how to ask, they won't tell you. That, I have a problem with.

6 emails... 6 emails is how long it took me to get a straight forward answer on how much it would cost me to park over the weekend at Windsor locks CT for a business trip. And after all was said and done, and I bought my mandatory 10 gal of gas to waive some of the fees, I arrive to an airplane topped off w 20 gallons of fuel at 7.30 a gal compared to my home airport of 5.20 a gal 1hr away. Some service...

 

Am confident my interrogation skills gained from years of practice trying to figure out an FBOs fees would make me an excellent interrogator for the CIA..