Cheap IFR GPS

[Danb]

Moontown there’s a heck of a deal on a kln 94 and antennae for sale like 1700 or so in the sale section 

[McMooney]

10 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

 

I did the opposite. Pulled my 300XL and installed a GTN650 in a low-value bird. Already had the good indicator which saved thousands by itself. Also installed a Lynx-9000. Project cost was in the mid 20’s. I caution you to not solely consider the raw value of your aircraft prior to making an avionics decision. I assure you that there are many aluminum turds flying around with 70-90% of the value just in the avionics.

Buy the equipment to serve your mission. I overbought but it’s already saved my ass a few times even as a vfr driver.

A/C Owners are somewhat similar to the young punks that overspend on their car-audio equipment. We both own vehicles that by themself are worth market scrap price but the radio equipment is worth a fortune.


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DAMN I belong to both groups

[glafaille]

I wish someone like Dynon would come out with an inexpensive GPS only navigator.  No comm, no VOR, no ILS, just waas GPS navigation.    

[tigers2007]

I’ve mentioned this many times in similar threads here. A local avionics installer near me was offering the GTN625 plus GTX345 both installed for $14k. Add an indicator and you’re cookin’ with Crisco on the cheap...all with modern equipment. I would have done this and kept my GNC-300XL if I had more panel space.


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[Andy95W]

40 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

 both installed for $14k. Add an indicator and you’re cookin’ with Crisco on the cheap...

I am filing the paperwork to revoke your CB club membership.

[SantosDumont]

I have the KLN 89B in my plane.  You can find them for like $500 bucks.  The thing I don't like about it is that it only has GPS approaches (no VOR, ILS, or DME overlays) and only 1 of the GPS approaches if an airport has multiple.  They must still be pretty good GPSs because they go for about $2k.  Every so often I keep a lookout on ebay to see if I can grab one for around $1k because I'd probably do that in a heartbeat... more than that I figure I might as well put the money towards a GTN650 since thats my desired end state.

[Yetti]

Something I had to learn.   There are three GPS TSO Standards

TSO129 -  Non WAAS - Not used for IFR approaches

 TSO145 - WAAS GPS - certified for GPS approaches

and TSO146 - Certified to be used as a GPS position source for ADSB.   The Dynon GPS 2020 for $600 meets this requirment

 

[MIm20c]

58 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Something I had to learn.   There are three GPS TSO Standards

TSO129 -  Non WAAS - Not used for IFR approaches

 TSO145 - WAAS GPS - certified for GPS approaches

and TSO146 - Certified to be used as a GPS position source for ADSB.   The Dynon GPS 2020 for $600 meets this requirment

 

I don’t think it’s as simple as that. Off memory there are different classification subsets for each tso standard. For instance the 129 with the A1 subset is legal for non precision ifr approaches. The 146 class 1 is no different and cannot provide info for vertical guidance. I have no idea what Dynon uses. 

Can the free waas receiver inside the Garmin G5 be used for adsb position?

[Yetti]

I agree that it is not simple.   The best I can tell the manufacture is the one saying that something meets a TSO standard.  From the GPS Data Sentences the $11.00 UBLOX7 will put the right accuracy flag and do 3D positioning.   So it would meet the WAAS standard.  But I think the FAA already fined one vendor for stuff like that.  The KX155 which is TSOed, but I have not found an STC for, but yet it is on the equipment list of many Mooneys.    here is one discussion  http://forum.shortwingpiperclub.org/showthread.php?4105-KX155-VHF-installation

 

 

[jetdriven]

On 9/14/2018 at 7:57 PM, SantosDumont said:

I have the KLN 89B in my plane.  You can find them for like $500 bucks.  The thing I don't like about it is that it only has GPS approaches (no VOR, ILS, or DME overlays) and only 1 of the GPS approaches if an airport has multiple.  They must still be pretty good GPSs because they go for about $2k.  Every so often I keep a lookout on ebay to see if I can grab one for around $1k because I'd probably do that in a heartbeat... more than that I figure I might as well put the money towards a GTN650 since thats my desired end state.

They are OK for situational awareness and I wouldn’t take one that was working out of the airplane if that’s all you had to be there not a great GPS. First of all if the screen develops dead pixels to throw it away. And also you cannot drive a GPSS because the position is not very accurate . Its  not accurate enough. And three would be crazy money to spend 4000 bucks to install one of these things with such limited capability, extra hardware needed, ans no support. . You have to have annunciator in a switch panel to use it and less you use a KI-209a which itself is about 1300$.  

[Andy95W]

12 hours ago, Yetti said:

 

TSO129 -  Non WAAS - Not used for IFR approaches

 

Not true.  May be used for enroute, terminal, AND approach phases (non-precision IFR approaches).

7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

They are OK for situational awareness and I wouldn’t take one that was working out of the airplane if that’s all you had to be there not a great GPS. First of all if the screen develops dead pixels to throw it away. And also you cannot drive a GPSS because the position is not very accurate . Its  not accurate enough. And three would be crazy money to spend 4000 bucks to install one of these things with such limited capability, extra hardware needed, ans no support. . You have to have annunciator in a switch panel to use it and less you use a KI-209a which itself is about 1300$.  

All true, except for the GPSS.  Old Garmins drive GPSS perfectly well, the problem with the KLN-89 is that it doesn't have the proper outputs for GPSS systems.

The oldest unit I would seriously consider installing into an airplane would be a non-first generation unit like a Garmin 155XL or 300XL.  Anything older just isn't reliable enough, but Garmin will still work on the XL versions- as long as you don't need a display.

[jetdriven]

16 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Not true.  May be used for enroute, terminal, AND approach phases (non-precision IFR approaches).

All true, except for the GPSS.  Old Garmins drive GPSS perfectly well, the problem with the KLN-89 is that it doesn't have the proper outputs for GPSS systems.

The oldest unit I would seriously consider installing into an airplane would be a non-first generation unit like a Garmin 155XL or 300XL.  Anything older just isn't reliable enough, but Garmin will still work on the XL versions- as long as you don't need a display.

http://dacint.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/GDC31-Svc-Info-Ltr-King-GPS-Recvr-Incompatibility.pdf

[carusoam]

Interesting that the KLN90B didn’t get mentioned in that letter...

It has the output that the 94 does not...

Does it have the processor speed that the 89 doesn’t have..?

20 year old technology fighting to stay relevant....

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

I don’t think the KLN90B is approved for the DAC31 GPSS either. 

[carusoam]

Byron, I was in the hunt for GPSS a few years ago...

DAC has a few variations on their GPSS... it is possible that 90B matches one version.... fuzzy old memory though...

Best regards,

-a-

[Andy95W]

12 hours ago, jetdriven said:

http://dacint.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/GDC31-Svc-Info-Ltr-King-GPS-Recvr-Incompatibility.pdf

Good information, I was talking about the STEC ST-901 which don't interface with the legacy KLN navigators due to input/output differences.  Of course the slow update rate of the KLN navigators might have something to do with it as well.

[LANCECASPER]

The aopa vref calculator is certainly not the ultimate authority on value but it's a place to start. It shows why it usually doesn't make sense to spend several thousands in labor to install an older GPS.

As an example the KLN89 and the KLN94 have such high screen failure rates and they don't make screens any more for them either, so you could spend 3000-4000 to install one and if it's one of the fortunate ones with a good screen, at best it's worth $1000-$1200. If it goes bad after you install it you've lost all of your investment.

(the green CRT type screens in the King KLN90 series have held up pretty well and they hold a higher value, but still not waas and not supported by King.)

 

As an example a GTN650 or an Avidyne IFD440 can be installed , labor included, for about 12,000 and you get new technology with a warranty and it's worth something for a few years. Plus you get WAAS, etc, etc.

[Jim Peace]

On 9/14/2018 at 10:33 AM, tigers2007 said:

I assure you that there are many aluminum turds flying around with 70-90% of the value just in the avionics.

 

You just made the list buddy....

[Jim Peace]

On 9/12/2018 at 11:33 PM, moontownMooney said:

I have a '68 M20F with a panel that is minimally IFR qualified and no IFR GPS. 

The title of your thread says you want a cheap IFR GPS.  You are flying a lawn mower with wings in a hostile environment, are you sure you want a cheap GPS?