Need help with CGR-30P choices

[jbs007]

I recently purchased a CGR-30P for my 1966 M20E while the Oshkosh discount was still in effect.  Anyway, it is time to replace some intermittent (at best) gauges and I need help figuring out what is actually "required instruments".  I can't find a copy of this "CAR3" I hear about and the TCDS found http://67m20e.com/Mooney TCDS 2A3 Rev 52 dtd 9DEC10.pdf doesn't seem to list instrument requirements.  I don't believe MEL or MMEL applies so does that really just leave me with TOMATOFLAMES???

Specifically, I want to show volts, amps, OAT, and Vacuum on the second page of my CGR as "not primary" instruments.  Do I need operational "primaries" for any of these gauges? To complicate the amps and volts, I have a plane power alternator STC on my Mooney.  My first page will be MP, RPM, EGT, CHT, Oil press, Oil temp, Fuel Press.  

 

Any advice on Fast Response vs Long Life on the EGT probes? If not I think I'd go for long life. 

For amps, should I use existing shunt or is there a benefit to the EI ammeter shunt?

For an aircraft that did not come with fuel flow, how hard is it to install that?

Any other surprises on install or woulda-shoulda-coulda's from people who have done this already?  I plan on doing as much of the install as an A&P will let me.  Thanks!!!

[Marauder]

I recently purchased a CGR-30P for my 1966 M20E while the Oshkosh discount was still in effect.  Anyway, it is time to replace some intermittent (at best) gauges and I need help figuring out what is actually "required instruments".  I can't find a copy of this "CAR3" I hear about and the TCDS found http://67m20e.com/Mooney TCDS 2A3 Rev 52 dtd 9DEC10.pdf doesn't seem to list instrument requirements.  I don't believe MEL or MMEL applies so does that really just leave me with TOMATOFLAMES???

Specifically, I want to show volts, amps, OAT, and Vacuum on the second page of my CGR as "not primary" instruments.  Do I need operational "primaries" for any of these gauges? To complicate the amps and volts, I have a plane power alternator STC on my Mooney.  My first page will be MP, RPM, EGT, CHT, Oil press, Oil temp, Fuel Press.  

 

Any advice on Fast Response vs Long Life on the EGT probes? If not I think I'd go for long life. 

For amps, should I use existing shunt or is there a benefit to the EI ammeter shunt?

For an aircraft that did not come with fuel flow, how hard is it to install that?

Any other surprises on install or woulda-shoulda-coulda's from people who have done this already?  I plan on doing as much of the install as an A&P will let me.  Thanks!!!

 

Check in the early part of your logs. It should show the type required equipment. There should also be a page with option equipment. Might give you a starting point.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[MooneyBob]

My first page is: MP, RPM, EGT/CHT, Fuel Flow, Fuel Presure, Oil pressure

Second page is : Oil temp, Horse Power,  Engine time, Volts, OAT,  Time

For the fuel flow you need a transducer and I don’t remember any issued installing it.

I don’t remember why I didn’t go with the AMP meter ( shunt) but I am assuming there was some reason. Otherwise I would have it. 

I have it for few years now and love it.

[carusoam]

Tomatoflames is a good place to start...

MELs come in a few varieties... day, night, vfr, ifr....

Places to look... for MELs...

wherevever your plane’s WnB details are kept...

The more modern, the POH has the details...

Lately... expect to see a possible challenge with the IO360’s fuel pressure range vs. markings.... (more around here somewhere...)

Somethings that are nice to have but didn’t get included in my plane...

Vaccuum gauge... (just a red light was all they thought was needed....)

Fuel pressure... (Fuel Flow was a nearly good substitute)

As an engineer, I kind of want more data then less data...

As a pilot, I kind of want appropriate data for the flight... Always in view...

OilP and FuelP would get a back seat if needed...oilT and FF are more important during the normal flight... troubleshooting in flight, it’s no longer a normal flight....

When it comes to selecting certified for primary... they are going to need to depict the redlines and yellow zones and other things that are on the original gauges... the modern POHs have these in the limitations section...

See if you can find this stuff in a more modern version of the POH for your plane...

to get all the details on one CGR... has been detailed in another thread... you probably need two devices to display it all...

PP thoughts only, stuff I read around here somewhere...

Best regards,

-a-

[jamesm]

I just installed an CGR30C ( the 'C' has no CHT/EGT) since I already had an Insight G3 for CHT & EGT    in a '67C

For amps, should I use existing shunt or is there a benefit to the EI ammeter shunt?  EI has  you fill out a worksheet you could put volt and amp on the 2nd page. The CGR flashes at you when you have low voltage.  As far current shunt goes since I could not  easily determine amp per 50 mv drop of my existing amp meter shut.     EI's worksheet requires you to know the amp per 50mv if you are going to use the existing shunt. if I recall it was negligible in  the price . I just when with  the  EI shunt  comes with the kit  the mounting holes are the same on the shunts.  Pay close attention to which wire  on the shut goes to the '-' side of the amp meter and '+ ' side of the meter.

With the  CGR 30 P on right side instrument panel  top position your could have a behind panel space problem (length of instrument) .... I wanted to put my CGR30C  on right   side  top where My tachometer was originally located but it wouldn't fit. So I had put in the  2nd 3.125" hole down where the MAP/fuel press gauge were located. So even with my  Insight G3  On top which is slightly shorter than the CGR 30 I think it  is like an 1' shorter. Even using a 3.125" to   2.25" reducer panel plate  which drop down  the  instrument   about another 0.5" from the it barley fit . It  interferes  defrost ducting . The problem I have is EI and other manufactures  products is  that becomes a real estate issue with all extra space needed for the  EDC  unit and Manifold  sensor being a yet separate unit.  and of course  they have to be  mounted in the cabin side of the firewall.  I got it to fit but I had to get creative but I will  probably re do right side panel again.  The ADS-B installer didn't help matters either  where they  decided to mount the altitude encoder  and I had to do some re-work some of their wiring.  If I recall correctly vacuum is another sensor like the MAP sensor  that needs yet more room.

As far which instrument  is on which page....  I think the EI's worksheet is designed to keep the critical choice  instruments on top first page  and in  view.  My guess is that is part of the STC.

So I don't think  that someone  could  intentionally put the  Tach  or Manifold pressure on the 2nd page  without it being displayed as primary on another approved instrument.   I believe most all oil pressure/temp fuel pressure are  typically on the first page  of the  color graphical  engine monitor whether it  is made by  EI,  JPI ,  Insight, Garmin, or Dynon or???. so you get to decide if it going to be left  side or right side and what position determined by EI's worksheet.

Now that I am done it wasn't too bad  though it took me way way longer than it should have, but life kept getting  in the way. There are some tricks when it came to calibrating  the fuel senders. I went with CIES  frequency response  fuel senders. I believe that EI has there own  version equivalent to CIES frequency response  fuel senders.

 The people at EI  are really  great to work with and are  very helpful  and patient  any  problem they will be able   step you through it.

 Good luck with your project.

James '67C

 

 

 

[jamesm]

I forgot to mention this maybe obvious but ... take pictures for your current engine instruments showing the markings  and of course the POH/Onwer's Manual  (provided it is approved installation) so when you or A&P  goes to fill out  EI's Worksheet  the most of the information  is right there in front of you.

[carusoam]

Great details, James!

EI is know for their great technical service. James described it really well.

Best regards,

-a-

[fuellevel]

To be specific EI senders are variable voltage and Hall effect sensor based.    CiES are Frequency or analog & frequency and are based on Anisotropic Magneto Resistive or AMR technology.    Yes I dug into a EI sender to investigate potential patent infringement.    a Google search on AMR vs Hall Effect will tell you more.    Yes similar concept, but different in detail.    CiES senders are TSO’d  and that is a difficult accomplishment one you won’t see at this price point by any other manufacturer.     

 

[jamesm]

Thanks for the clarification on how the different  fuel sender principles work. I wasn't too sure how EI  fuel senders work other than  they used the same input into the CGR30C.

And to be fair ... CIES has outstanding customer support as well.  Very happy with technical knowledge and support that I have received from CIES .  They are well designed units.

James '67C

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by jamesm

[carusoam]

Nice tech details, Scott! @fuellevel

Best regards,

-a-

[aerobat95]

Does this gauge count as primary for the fuel quantity?  I would love to get rid of the analog gauges all together.

[gsxrpilot]

8 hours ago, aerobat95 said:

Does this gauge count as primary for the fuel quantity?  I would love to get rid of the analog gauges all together.

Nope. You'll need to buy another one to be able to eliminate the fuel gauges. And exactly why I don't see the CGR as a good buy.

[mike42]

I would just keep your original fuel senders (gauges), they are needed but not very accurate as a general rule.

You will just end up using the "switch tank" function on the CGR 30p anyway.

The CGR-30P fuel flow sensor is extremely accurate and you will know how much fuel you have per tank based on the actual calculated fuel flow rate (it is off by 0.5 gallons per 30 gallon tank.

The CGR-30P will also remind you when to switch your tanks every 5 to 10 gallons (your choice).

It also gives you an endurance time based on your current fuel flow rate and total number of gallons left in your plane.  To reset the gauge after fill up, there is a one button push to default to full tanks, which is quick and easy (on the start up screen).

Mike

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Mike.

Go ahead and update your avatar details when you get a chance.

Best regards,

-a-

[jamesm]

I guess I need a sanity check or education or ???? from the group on this.

So from previous post in  this thread .....

16 hours ago, aerobat95 said:

Does this gauge count as primary for the fuel quantity?  I would love to get rid of the analog gauges all together.

Nope. You'll need to buy another one to be able to eliminate the fuel gauges. And exactly why I don't see the CGR as a good buy.

However on EI's web site  says .....

"The CGR-30C can replace up to 16 Primary Instruments, which means you can remove an ENTIRE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER with a single 3-1/8” instrument. This means Oil Temperature/Pressure, Fuel Pressure, even Fuel Level instruments can now be removed  ... "

source: https://buy-ei.com/portfolio/cgr-30c-overview/#overview

I would hope this is not false advertisement or attempt to deceive their customer by EI and others  Engine monitor manufactures.

Like some aviation product advertisements  that I have seen   where the advertised  product  says "MEETS"  TSO XXx   which is of course is not the same of having the STC or PMA or TSO. the product they are trying to sell. So of course it would be "shady"  install put simple not approved installation.

Maybe I am too  naive  on this  one....  But one would think that there would be some sort mechanism in place so If some owner/Pilot/Mechanic  tries to mix and match Engine Monitor/Gauge Replacement there would be flagged from someone doing  the removal OEM  engine instrument cluster.  Not to mention  what good   would there be in the frequency fuel senders   if the airplane was delivered  resistive type fuel senders   and OEM Fuel Level gauge  shown in the TCDS/ AEL.  I know that CIES makes a resistive type  in lieu of frequency fuel senders. this would mean you could never  replace  some what  bulky, parallax design (for the older models Mooney's)   in the way Engine Gauge cluster.  So I would think in case  of the fuel senders being 30 Ohm for early model Mooney's  and mechanic could have potential inducing or  loading down circuit impedance causing erroneous fuel level readings for you connecting them in parallel  with existing  OEM fuel senders.

So is  this an another rule "like"  "you must carry an ELT that transmits on  121.5 Mhz  on aircraft " however  there in no one in the  government  no longer continuously  monitor  the 121.5 Mhz frequency. I am not trying start a debate on whether should or should not have an ELT on board  or why you should have on board but  rather  from a rational perspective the old adage of " if tree fall in the forest  and nobody is a round ..."  .  we have to have more rational guidance to how these rules and regulations  are being applied . instead of the interpretations left up to the enforcers  based on emotions, illogical   and irrational application of them 

 

James '67C

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Are we talking about the CGR-30P or CGR-30C? Some posts in this thread refer to one, and some to the other.

With both gauges, you can remove all the stock primary gauges. But with only one of the instruments, you have to choose which stock gauges it will replace. It can't replace all of them.

The 30P will include MP, RPM, CHT, EGT and any 3 other gauges.

The 30C will include any gauges except for MP, RPM. 

To replace all required engine gauges in a Mooney, you'd need both the P and the C instruments. 

Or you can replace them all with a single EDM900, EDM930, or MVP-50.

[jamesm]

I guess your are correct from an instrument panel real estate prospective , money  and time was no objective something like the EDM 930 or MVP-50 would be a better choice.

although amount of time I though it would take  me to install it much more  than it should have  . oh well.

I just Installed CGR-30C Which has RPM and MAP, fuel press, oil temp/press  amps and left/right fuel quantity  on first screen and another 8 function on the 2nd screen for about ~ $2100 after rebate. Which for me at  the time made since  being that I  already have  installed an insight G3  for CHT's/EGT's and fuel flow.

I didn't want have to re-wire  CHT's and EGT's and other  and re-plumb fuel line  if I went with  the EDM900, EDM930, or MVP-50. I stuck with what I had.

I  was more concern that I missed something in the   regulations like saying  you couldn't  remove the OEM Engine gauge cluster because of the fuel quantity gauges .  :-O

As I understand the "P" Premium model  CGR-30P is like the top of line of the CGR-30 series that comes with CHT/EGT  and the customization of 16 functions. where as  the CGR-30C similar to CGR30P but no CHT's/EGT's indications.

Then there is CGR-30  basic version  which essentially has no brains and  act as second screen.

James  '67C

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by jamesm

[gsxrpilot]

I'd missed the bit where you've already got a G3 to cover the CHT/EGT requirement.

The CGR-30C can be primary for whatever you can display on the main screen. With CHT/EGT on the G3, you might be able to get everything else, including fuel gauges on the main screen. 

Basically if you've got it on the main screen of the 30C, you can remove the corresponding factory gauge. Does that make sense?

[jamesm]

Basically if you've got it on the main screen of the 30C, you can remove the corresponding factory gauge. Does that make sense?

That is how I see it.  I just didn't want get myself or  anyone else for that matter in trouble on a public form .

I mentioned to EI  rep at trade show the literature for CGR-30C  certificated aircraft  version shows primary screen not having RPM and manifold  pressure indications.  Since I didn't see it  being displayed brochure CGR-30C  certificated aircraft  version I thought you couldn't replace the  RPM , MAP & Fuel Press gauges.  Don't know if EI pick up on that. It was only after talking to the EI rep I realize I could remove my RPM and Manifold instruments.

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, jamesm said:

Basically if you've got it on the main screen of the 30C, you can remove the corresponding factory gauge. Does that make sense?

That is how I see it.  I just didn't want get myself or  anyone else for that matter in trouble on a public form .

I mentioned to EI  rep at trade show the literature for CGR-30C  certificated aircraft  version shows primary screen not having RPM and manifold  pressure indications.  Since I didn't see it  being displayed brochure CGR-30C  certificated aircraft  version I thought you couldn't replace the  RPM , MAP & Fuel Press gauges.  Don't know if EI pick up on that. It was only after talking to the EI rep I realize I could remove my RPM and Manifold instruments.

I'm not an A&P but have researched engine monitors very thoroughly and wouldn't own a Mooney without one. 

The CGR-30C can be Primary for anything displayed on the main screen. And therefore those corresponding factory gauges can be removed.

Just a bit on the basis for my information... I installed a G2 in my first Mooney and kept the factory engine gauges except for the CHT and EGT gauges. Later the tach failed and I had to replace that as well. With my second Mooney, I already had some failing gauges and didn't want to do the job twice. So I installed the EDM-900 which would do everything in one unit. It was cheaper than installing the CGR units as I would have had to had both the P and C to cover everything. Or I'd have had to go as you did, G3 for temps and CGR for everything else. The EDM-900 also took less real estate then having two gauges. 

[jamesm]

One odd thing that bothers me.... I am not sure how Engine Monitor people have  gotten by  the FAA  with  this ... but with a  Digital display type engine monitor you lose total electrical power you lose everything except maybe the new Garmin TXI series . where as you lose electrical power on the mechanical style tach manifold pressure fuel  pressure and my guess would be that oil pressure to keep on showing.   I would think that  the fuel quantity and amp CHT  and oil temp become inop. 

Hopefully I never get experience this but it is something on the back of my mind.

[mike42]

I really do not know why someone would want to take out the old existing gauges (besides panel appearance).  I would much rather have a duel backup for each gauge the original and the electronic.  Much safer in my opinion.

The biggest advantage of the electronic gauges is that they will give you an early annunciation warning visual/audible of an engine problem.  I use it on takeoff, it is an easy go/ no go if I have a red light flashing, it is a no go.  Much safer than trying to scan all the gauges just before rotation in my opinion.  Another advantage of the electronic gauges, is that you will be alerted much sooner in a drop of amperage or voltage than the old gauges.  Of course if the whole thing goes out,  it might be a good idea to get on the ground ASAP and find out what is going wrong.  (Unless you kept your old gauges)

The advantage of the old gauges is that they are rock solid and seem like they just work, but they are just not as sensitive, but they do provide a good cross reference.

The biggest advantage of the CGR 30-P is that it just takes up one 3” hole for everything so that you can keep all your old gauges.

Mike

[Igor_U]

5 minutes ago, mike42 said:

I really do not know why someone would want to take out the old existing gauges (besides panel appearance).  I would much rather have a duel backup for each gauge the original and the electronic.  Much safer in my opinion.

 

Main reason I wanted to remove old gages was eliminating old fuel and oil line to the old Fuel/oil pressure gages.

I really don't care about having old gages as they are not as accurate as new electronic display (and man with two watches really doesn't know exactly what time it is ) and you save some weight and simplify the panel. If the whole display suddenly dies, I wouldn't consider it as emergence as I can fly same settings and continue the flight to the destination. YMMV.

[gsxrpilot]

26 minutes ago, mike42 said:

I really do not know why someone would want to take out the old existing gauges (besides panel appearance).  I would much rather have a duel backup for each gauge the original and the electronic.  Much safer in my opinion.

I would argue its less safe because of this. 

17 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

and man with two watches really doesn't know exactly what time it is

Also the fuel and oil lines running into the cockpit. 

Finally, there is no emergency if I lose engine instruments. Losing any of them, tach, MP, oil temp, oil pressure, OAT, Amps, fuel, etc. doesn't constitute an emergency. If I'm flying, I can still complete the flight or turn around and go home, or find a suitable airport and go land. It's not like losing the Attitude indicator or other flight instruments in IMC, for example. So having a "backup" MP gauge, for example, only serves to confuse the situation as I wouldn't know which one to believe. This can cause one to actually be using bad information which over a couple of hundred of engine hours, could turn into a safety issue.

No thanks, I'm very happy with my upgraded engine instrumentation and the accurate and detailed data it provides. Which contributes to the safe running of the one and only engine I have.

[larryb]

The reason to take out old gauges is because, in some cases, the gauges are not maintainable. In my J the fuel pressure transducer was bad and there were none available. Even if maintainable the cost may be prohibitive. But all this depends on exactly which factory components you have.