jemenake Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 Greetings, Mooners! I tried searching the forums for some clues about this, but no luck, so I'm posting. My partners and I are looking into getting an engine analyzer for our M20K (231), and we asked a nearby shop for a quote for a JPI 830, and they came back with over $14k... $3+k for the actual unit and over $10k for labor. We're having a little trouble accepting that kind of a labor cost. What are some costs y'all have incurred to install an engine monitor on the level of a JPI 830 or 900? Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 How many hours?Seems high but I only done upgrades and on a 4 cylinder with no turbo . 900 is more expensive because it has more senders and the fuel calibration, which the 830 doesn’t have. Both require connections to your GPS.I’m guessing they came in around 100 hours of labor. Quote
carusoam Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 Welcome aboard, jemenake. We have several people around here that may be able to shine a light on your question... I’ll send a couple a signal... see if they are around... these guys are suppliers of hardware and services... @Jeev and @Aerodon The 830 is a nice device for additional data collection and display... The 900 takes it to the next level for planes that want to replace their primary instruments... PP thoughts only, not an instrument guy... Best regards, -a- Quote
N6018Q Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 I just had an 830 installed on an "E" for around $3k in labor (at $50/hr). I had a menagerie of older tech for fuel flow, rpm and cylinder temps but ALL of the old probes, sensors, harnesses, etc. were removed and replaced. No GPS connections were established. Fuel flow was installed but not any direct connections to fuel quantity. Summary: ~60 hrs without TIT, GPS, CIES Quote
gsxrpilot Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 The "book" says 20 hours. Most shops I've talked to say 40 hours. Anything over 40 hours and I'd say you're paying to teach them how to install a JPI. *This was for an EDM 900. Do yourself a favor and install the 900 instead of the 830. Otherwise when your factory cluster fails, you'll be redoing the job all over again but with the 900. 6 Quote
KSMooniac Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 Find a different shop! Or consider finding a friendly mechanic to supervise a DIY install, or as much as you might be comfortable with. Much of the labor is simple but tedious...no need to pay $100/hr if you're inclined to do some yourself.My 900 took me 50-60 hours for me to install, but a shop should be able to do it in 40 or so.I strongly encourage stepping up to a 900 as well. The incremental extra cost is worth it!Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 2 Quote
EricJ Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 I had an EDM-900 installed recently and was quoted and charged 35 hours/$3500 for installation. The install has been great so far, no squawks related to the engine monitor. They accommodated some changes so that the sensors were placed to be maintenance-friendly. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 The "book" says 20 hours. Most shops I've talked to say 40 hours. Anything over 40 hours and I'd say you're paying to teach them how to install a JPI. 20?!6 cylinders with a turbo: 13 sensors (CHT, EGT, TIT)OP,OT, MP, Tach, fuel flow, ammeter,OAT. Fuel level senders That’s 22 probe connections. Plus GPS connection and associated configuration changes, fuel calibration. Not to mention removing old gauges .That’s less than a hour per probe? That’s some book! Quote
KSMooniac Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 20 hours might be part of the sales pitch from JPI... make it sound less painful to get the sale?Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 1 Quote
jemenake Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, teejayevans said: That’s less than a hour per probe? True... and, if they were all different probes, I could accept more than 1 hr per probe. But, in reality, we're installing 6 identical CHT's and 6 identical EGT's. I'm thinking 6 EGT's could be installed in much fewer than 6 hours. I'm also thinking along the lines of gsxrpilot: in regards to paying to teach the mechanic. Seems to me that someone who has installed one of these before isn't going to be scratching their head going "Hmmm... where do I want to drill the hole for this probe?". Additionally, although I've never witnessed an install of one of these, I'd imagine that JPI makes some of their probes to fit where the stock ones did, so some sensors could be as easy as a bolt-off/on, no? Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 The EGTs you have drill, everything else is bolted on,off. You have route all these wires, carefully, otherwise you’ll get noise if you just tie to the ignition wires for example. Unless you’ve done it a few times, 20 seems pushing it. I was present for some of the work, the fuel calibration procedure alone took 2 hours, and we had to do it twice because of a bad sender. Of course I had stuff removed, so that took time. I help with some of the work. I know everytime I work my plane or boat, it always ends up taking twice as long I think it should, I can’t explain it 2 Quote
Marauder Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 I think around 40 hours is pretty close. If you are going through a fresh install, the big work is running the harnesses and installing of the CHT/EGT (drilling the exhaust stacks) probes, draining the fuel and calibrating the fuel gauges (for a 900) and installing of the other probes/sensors (oil pressure, oil temperature, fuel pressure, fuel flow, amps, OAT, MP, RPM, the connection to the GPS and finally the removal and capping off all of the primary gauges being removed for a 900). In my case, I kept the EI FP-5L, RPM & MP gauges so I know there was more time spent making additional adapters. Quote
KSMooniac Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 Also consider for those of us with older planes that have/had oil and fuel pressure lines going to the panel instruments... You have to get hoses made for the new transducers that stay on the engine side of the firewall, where they should be! It takes time to plan those, fabricate/purchase, and then install and secure. It is a lot of tedious work, especially if you try to keep it tidy and secure.Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk Quote
kortopates Posted July 17, 2018 Report Posted July 17, 2018 I believe JPI says 40 hrs without fuel tank calibration on their website. If a first time install, thats optimistic. For a 900 new hoses for a few sensors need to be made up as well (oil press, map, fuel pressure). Replacing one and a installing new one from scratch are 2 different things entirely.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
Jeev Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 On 7/16/2018 at 10:55 PM, jemenake said: Greetings, Mooners! I tried searching the forums for some clues about this, but no luck, so I'm posting. My partners and I are looking into getting an engine analyzer for our M20K (231), and we asked a nearby shop for a quote for a JPI 830, and they came back with over $14k... $3+k for the actual unit and over $10k for labor. We're having a little trouble accepting that kind of a labor cost. What are some costs y'all have incurred to install an engine monitor on the level of a JPI 830 or 900? Woah!!! That is WAY high! Right now I am selling the 6 cylinder EDM 830 for $2750 - $300 JPI rebate = $2450 and the extra TIT probe is $175.50. Labor at my shop in Vegas is 17-22 hrs (at the high end) at $90/hr so a total of $1,980 for the install but my guys have done a ton of these so it could easily be less if your wiring is clean. The 6 cylinder EDM900 is $4,350 - $300 JPI rebate = $4,050 and that is total with two fuel tanks and the TIT. The install for the 900 is a little more involved so you are looking at around 30 hours also at the high end and could be 5-10hrs less, $2,700. Where are you located? Also depending on how involved you like to get with your aircraft the EDM 830 is a fairly straightforward install that most people under the supervision of a friendly A&P can do in a weekend or two. Drilling the holes, placing the CHT & EGT sensors and basic running of the wires you can do while your A&P / I/A should do fuel transducers and anything that taps into fuel, oil or other wet lines. Also you don't necessarily need to go to an "avionics" shop as many A&P/IA's do these all the time. Check around your field they will probably come in much cheaper. I would love to earn your business, come over to Vegas and I will get you set up or I can send you the product. Shoot me a PM or email if I can help. As some have said if you need new lines fuel, MP, oil........ it will add to the install but definitely nowhere near $14k Sanjeev Prasad sanjeev@wolfaviationsales.com 3 3 Quote
Jeev Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 15 hours ago, carusoam said: Welcome aboard, jemenake. We have several people around here that may be able to shine a light on your question... I’ll send a couple a signal... see if they are around... these guys are suppliers of hardware and services... @Jeev and @Aerodon The 830 is a nice device for additional data collection and display... The 900 takes it to the next level for planes that want to replace their primary instruments... PP thoughts only, not an instrument guy... Best regards, -a- Thank you for the heads up 1 Quote
Pritch Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 Its not that hard, I installed my 830 myself with an occasional look over my shoulder from my I/A. First do you have a fuel flow already and GPS? Second are you and your partners anywhere mechanically inclined? It took me about 35 hours total running all the wires and installing the probes. Pritch 2 Quote
ziggysanchez Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) Don Maxwell Aviation did an EDM 900 on a my 231 for approximately $5800 if I remember right. That was for the part and the install. So I definitely think they are charging too much. Edited July 18, 2018 by ziggysanchez Quote
Jeev Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 26 minutes ago, ziggysanchez said: Don Maxwell Aviation did an EDM 900 on a my 231 for approximately $5800 if I remember right. That was for the part and the install. So I definitely think they are charging too much. That is about right we have done many that fall in that price range or less when the wiring behind the panel is relatively good and the lines and hoses are in good shape. The prices I gave above for the installs are assuming almost worst case and still come in way below what the OP was quoted. For a 6 cylinder turbo we usually come in around 14-22hrs. 1 Quote
jemenake Posted July 18, 2018 Author Report Posted July 18, 2018 12 hours ago, Pritch said: Its not that hard, I installed my 830 myself with an occasional look over my shoulder from my I/A. First do you have a fuel flow already and GPS? Second are you and your partners anywhere mechanically inclined? It took me about 35 hours total running all the wires and installing the probes. Pritch Actually, we have a JPI FuelScan 450, already (although I imagine JPI has upgraded their fuel-flow sender, in the intervening years. The sender will need replacing with the new one, but, at least, I imagine the splices to the fuel line and a method of keeping the sender secure have already been worked out). Yeah, we also have a GPS, and all partners are either engineers and/or have worked on cars a good amount. We're tossing around the idea of doing it ourselves. Quote
Jeev Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 46 minutes ago, jemenake said: Actually, we have a JPI FuelScan 450, already (although I imagine JPI has upgraded their fuel-flow sender, in the intervening years. The sender will need replacing with the new one, but, at least, I imagine the splices to the fuel line and a method of keeping the sender secure have already been worked out). Yeah, we also have a GPS, and all partners are either engineers and/or have worked on cars a good amount. We're tossing around the idea of doing it ourselves. Actually your existing fuel flow transducer for the 450 is compatible with the EDM830 so you should be able save some money on that, usually about $100 on the instrument but at least an hour on the install. If you go with the EDM 900 it is shipped as a full kit since it is a certified replacement so no savings there. If I were you I would seriously look into doing it yourself. PM me if you would like a quote. Have a good day! Quote
Steve W Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 I think my EDM 900 will be about 100 hours, or so it seems, 80 for me and 10-20 for my mechanic. I'm running all the wires I can safely do and a few other bits and then handing it off to him for the actual sensor connections and important bits, like touching fuel or oil lines. To me it seems the newer your plane is or the more avionics it has the harder it will be, 80% of the work seems to be figuring out where the safe spots are for the wires and apparently all the empty space behind my panel is already filled with wires. At this time I'm not removing all the wires for the existing cluster gauge or fuel flow, it took me nearly 4 hours just to extract the harness for the old Insight monitor, I'll have that done as part of a full panel change out next year when there's more access since a bunch of other wires will be leaving at the same time. Luckily the old fuel flow has the GPS connections so I can re-use those without needing to access the GPS tray. Quote
larryb Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 In my J it was 40 hours labor at a well known MSC. Quote
Pritch Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 4 hours ago, jemenake said: Actually, we have a JPI FuelScan 450, already (although I imagine JPI has upgraded their fuel-flow sender, in the intervening years. The sender will need replacing with the new one, but, at least, I imagine the splices to the fuel line and a method of keeping the sender secure have already been worked out). Yeah, we also have a GPS, and all partners are either engineers and/or have worked on cars a good amount. We're tossing around the idea of doing it ourselves. I also have the JPI 450 and when I call them they said to just piggy back onto it for fuel flow 1 Quote
Marauder Posted July 18, 2018 Report Posted July 18, 2018 I also have the JPI 450 and when I call them they said to just piggy back onto it for fuel flow That’s what we did with my 900 and EI FP-5L.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote
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