Backup AHRS

[Seth]

I have decided that I would like to permanently place an electronic AHRS in my cockpit as a backup to my panel.  It does not need to be certified equipment as it's for emergency situations.

I have a King KFC 200.  I can do more research, but as of a few months ago, unless I go ASPEN or G500/600, I can't control that unit without a King Vacuum KI256A, which I'll overhaul/repair over the years and use until something better comes out when I may go glass years from now.

If a G5 could control a KFC 200, we may have a different story

In the meantime, I have panel space on the right side.  It is not quite big enough for a Garmin 795/796, but could be after some panel work, which I'm not planning to do right now.

I do have a Garmin Aera 560 with WX weather (9.99 per month marine skyview package - everything but winds aloft) panel mounted under my Garmin 430W and KX165 in my center stack.  The Garmin GTX345 now puts traffic and ADSB weather on my 430 and ipad (which I used to get from a stratus 2).  I still like the WX weather better.

I'm working on getting my new Garmin GTX345 to speak properly to my yoke mounted ipad.  The positioning refresh rate is slow compared to my previous stratus II.  The AHRS in ForeFlight worked perfectly once wtih the GTX 345.  Most times it is incorrect, choppy, and not useful at all.  I'm going to fully remove ForeFlight and reinstall on my ipad Mini as well as and then add back on.  I'll also make sure the Ipad mini 2 is up to date.  This could be the processing speed as well - I'll find out.  It could be I have a bad GTX345 or that it needs an adjustment of some sort, but I'm going to see if I can troubleshoot easy things first.

THE WANT:  I want an AHRS type unit  separate on the panel

-Does not have to be officially installed but it will be mounted somehow on the right side of the panel.

-Synthetic vision is a nice to have but not required

-I'm fine with experimental avionics for this since it's a non-official reference - I have my KI256A in the panel

-Cost:  I'd like to keep this lower cost, but am not opposed to spending some money if this becomes the backup in a future updated panel (just installed the GTX 345 and had some Autopilot repair - bad servo and other various items - it's been a fun recent few months avionics costs wise).

Possibilities:

1.  Long Term down the road maybe:   Install Garmin G5 in the primary section of my panel where the KI256A is located, move the KI256A somewhere else and once the G5 can control a KFC 200, replace the KI256A with another G5 and remove vacuum system (expensive and not what I'm going to do)

2.  NOPE:  Aspen - I'm not going to do this - I personally do not like Aspen and it's too pricey right now for what I want to do.

3.  NOPE: KI300 - I do not think I'm going to install the King AHRS unit in my airplane - it's not even available yet

4.  Garmin G500/600 - NOPE - too pricy right now - will wait and see about the G3X and if it gets an STC - but that's a while from now.

REAL Possibilities (a small selection):

5.  Dynon Pocket Panel

6.  Iphone or Android with APP to get AHRS feed from GTX 345 and mounted on panel.

7.  Garmin Aera 660 (no WX weather - have to check on traffic, yes AHRS, not sure about synthetic vision)

8.  Garmin 795/796 (after seeing setup in Oscar's Mooney, this is EXACTLY) what I want, but I just doesn't quite fit the panel space, for now, but I may figure out a way to make that work - this could be ideal.

9.  What in the experimental market, like an experimental G5 which I could always sell afterward, or something, is out there that I can place in the space available - almost enough space for a Garmin 795/796.

The Ask:  Help me decide what I'm placing in my panel as my second artificial horizon and first AHRS unit.

Thanks!

 

-Seth

[donkaye]

10 minutes ago, Seth said:

I have decided that I would like to permanently place an electronic AHRS in my cockpit as a backup to my panel.  It does not need to be certified equipment as it's for emergency situations.

I have a King KFC 200.  I can do more research, but as of a few months ago, unless I go ASPEN or G500/600, I can't control that unit without a King Vacuum KI256A, which I'll overhaul/repair over the years and use until something better comes out when I may go glass years from now.

If a G5 could control a KFC 200, we may have a different story

In the meantime, I have panel space on the right side.  It is not quite big enough for a Garmin 795/796, but could be after some panel work, which I'm not planning to do right now.

I do have a Garmin Aera 560 with WX weather (9.99 per month marine skyview package - everything but winds aloft) panel mounted under my Garmin 430W and KX165 in my center stack.  The Garmin GTX345 now puts traffic and ADSB weather on my 430 and ipad (which I used to get from a stratus 2).  I still like the WX weather better.

I'm working on getting my new Garmin GTX345 to speak properly to my yoke mounted ipad.  The positioning refresh rate is slow compared to my previous stratus II.  The AHRS in ForeFlight worked perfectly once wtih the GTX 345.  Most times it is incorrect, choppy, and not useful at all.  I'm going to fully remove ForeFlight and reinstall on my ipad Mini as well as and then add back on.  I'll also make sure the Ipad mini 2 is up to date.  This could be the processing speed as well - I'll find out.  It could be I have a bad GTX345 or that it needs an adjustment of some sort, but I'm going to see if I can troubleshoot easy things first.

THE WANT:  I want an AHRS type unit  separate on the panel

-Does not have to be officially installed but it will be mounted somehow on the right side of the panel.

-Synthetic vision is a nice to have but not required

-I'm fine with experimental avionics for this since it's a non-official reference - I have my KI256A in the panel

-Cost:  I'd like to keep this lower cost, but am not opposed to spending some money if this becomes the backup in a future updated panel (just installed the GTX 345 and had some Autopilot repair - bad servo and other various items - it's been a fun recent few months avionics costs wise).

Possibilities:

1.  Long Term down the road maybe:   Install Garmin G5 in the primary section of my panel where the KI256A is located, move the KI256A somewhere else and once the G5 can control a KFC 200, replace the KI256A with another G5 and remove vacuum system (expensive and not what I'm going to do)

2.  NOPE:  Aspen - I'm not going to do this - I personally do not like Aspen and it's too pricey right now for what I want to do.

3.  NOPE: KI300 - I do not think I'm going to install the King AHRS unit in my airplane - it's not even available yet

4.  Garmin G500/600 - NOPE - too pricy right now - will wait and see about the G3X and if it gets an STC - but that's a while from now.

REAL Possibilities (a small selection):

5.  Dynon Pocket Panel

6.  Iphone or Android with APP to get AHRS feed from GTX 345 and mounted on panel.

7.  Garmin Aera 660 (no WX weather - have to check on traffic, yes AHRS, not sure about synthetic vision)

8.  Garmin 795/796 (after seeing setup in Oscar's Mooney, this is EXACTLY) what I want, but I just doesn't quite fit the panel space, for now, but I may figure out a way to make that work - this could be ideal.

9.  What in the experimental market, like an experimental G5 which I could always sell afterward, or something, is out there that I can place in the space available - almost enough space for a Garmin 795/796.

The Ask:  Help me decide what I'm placing in my panel as my second artificial horizon and first AHRS unit.

Thanks!

 

-Seth

For serious IFR flying, safety not money should  be the consideration in my opinion.  I personally won't even teach the Instrument Rating now if the person doesn't have a second AI in the panel.  They are so inexpensive that it just doesn't make sense to not have one.  Having said that I have a friend who had the small $1,500 Dynon and I just didn't think it worked all that well.  With the FS 210 feeding my Aera 796 that is ON THE YOKE I get smooth motion on the Ai and am sure it would be satisfactory to get out of IMC and land with the plane right side up.  Still it's not as good as either the mechanical Castleberry or the G5.  I'd get the G5 and sell it down the line when you upgraded to all glass.

[jetdriven]

the Aera660 attitude display is good with either the FS210 or the GTX345 AHRS.  Ive flown it in IFR and its a valid backup. The refresh rate is fast and its accurate.   Just make sure the AHRS is coming in hard wired to the Aera660, dont depend on Bluetooth for this.  When not using it for a AI it does  many other things too. Usually I leave it on the VFR sectional or the traffic page.

Edited March 16, 2018 by jetdriven

[Jerry 5TJ]

3 hours ago, Seth said:

.....

The Ask:  Help me decide what I'm placing in my panel as my second artificial horizon and first AHRS unit.

The L3 ESI-500 is a fine little glass panel display in its own right and it can be the certified backup for your future glass panel upgrade.  

[carusoam]

L3 ESI 500

Because it is the legal back-up to many of your glass panels that you may choose from in the future...

Has all the air data and gives your copilot something to work with... if...

The ability to work with aging portable stuff gets a bit sketchier with their age.  Updates between apps and versions of their OS can be a problem...  sometimes there is a challenge presented by the order in which the devices get turned on.  Remembering to connect by WiFi or BT is another challenge...  strength of the BT signal...?

A portables Check list addendum is a good idea...  

PP thoughts only, all stuff I read about on MS...

Best regards,

-a-

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

  I personally won't even teach the Instrument Rating now if the person doesn't have a second AI in the panel.  

I imagine because you like redundancy for safety.  But you're still in a single engine airplane.  If you lose the AI, you'll probably still get down okay.  If you lose the engine, you're dead.  I suppose you pick your poison, huh?

[kortopates]

31 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I imagine because you like redundancy for safety.  But you're still in a single engine airplane.  If you lose the AI, you'll probably still get down okay.  If you lose the engine, you're dead.  I suppose you pick your poison, huh?

I believe the vacuum based AI is far less reliable than the engine. Plus we've seen all kinds of pilots demonstrate how lethal loosing their AI, either because of a AI failure or a vacuum failure. Its doesn't take low IMC conditions either. It'll be just two years in May since a Bonanza pilot over stressed his airframe leading to an aluminium shower and 3 fatals over NY. The aircraft had descended barely the first thousand or so feet from ~7K before it broke up. Even with the less likely engine out scenario, gliding down to VMC conditions could lead to a decent chance of surviving  off field landing. We saw one here successfully on Mooneyspace not long ago - not from IMC but from a pretty low VFR altitude descending for landing at night time no less.

Regardless, although our engines are pretty reliable overall, we can't do much about engine redundancy flying singles. But these days the backup options for AI and vacuum failures are plentiful and affordable that it makes very little sense not to have one; especially given the fatal loss of control accident record from their loss.       

Edited March 16, 2018 by kortopates

[EricJ]

For a total CB and portable approach, a $150 Stratux with the $15 AHRS card added will drive the EFD feature in many EFB apps.    <- Acronym championship submission.   I keep an old cell phone in my flight bag that has a suction mount that I can put on the windscreen near the center pillar, and it makes a fine EFD using the AHRS in the Stratux and the GPS in the phone or the Stratux.   Both will run on their own batteries if you set it up that way, so there is no dependence on the aircraft panel or electrical system at all.   The GPS  (in the Stratux or in the phone, if you don't want to spring the $35 for the USB WAAS GPS antenna for the Stratux) will provide altitude and velocity info for the display.

You can totally lose the panel and electrical system and still fly and navigate in an emergency for peanuts.   This is a good time to be a CB pilot.

[MIm20c]

You can’t move the 256 and replace it with a G5 because of the lacking Flight director.  However, I think you could add the G5 as a backup (as the backup is not legally needed I’m sure a shop or kind IA will install it for you).

My strategy is going to be a Garmin 660 with a GDL 50R attached. It will combine the TIS traffic from my 330es and adsb with target trend, has an internal AHRS with a 5 hour battery hardwired to the 660, adsb weather, flight plan push from my 430w to my iPad on the yoke, and extra screen for mfd usage. 

Only problem is I’m not a fan of the current docks. Going to have to fab one up. 

[N201MKTurbo]

While you can't use a G5 for a required backup, I can't imagine there would be a problem installing one in addition to any required instruments. You can use it as a nav indicator and two button pushes later you have a fully functional PFD.

[LANCECASPER]

Many people, when doing panel make-overs, are taking the MidContinent Lifesaver Gyros with a battery backups out of their panels because they are mesmerized with having all glass, even the backup.

These were close to $5000 new and have a Mean Time Between Failure rating of 7500 hours. I bought one used from Beechtalk that had been recently overhauled at MidContinent for $750 and replaced my turn coordinator with it. Look for one of these on the used market. They are very well made and could do as their name implies, save your life. They also serve as approved backups for Aspen and Garmin glass panels down the road.

[Bennett]

Many people, when doing panel make-overs, are taking the MidContinent Lifesaver Gyros with a battery backups out of their panels because they are mesmerized with having all glass, even the backup.
These were close to $5000 new and have a Mean Time Between Failure rating of 7500 hours. I bought one used from Beechtalk that had been recently overhauled at MidContinent for $750 and replaced my turn coordinator with it. Look for one of these on the used market. They are very well made and could do as their name implies, save your life. They also serve as approved backups for Aspen and Garmin glass panels down the road.

 
 
 
 

I very much concur. I’ve had the LifeSaver for several years now, and it works flawlessly. The back up battery is expensive, but well worth it. I had the inclinometer add in fail last year, and it was replaced at no cost to me, nor any hassle. Good company -good product.


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[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Bennett said:

I very much concur. I’ve had the LifeSaver for several years now, and it works flawlessly. The back up battery is expensive, but well worth it. I had the inclinometer add in fail last year, and it was replaced at no cost to me, nor any hassle. Good company -good product.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here's a way to save on the battery replacement - they are the exact batteries that Midcontinent uses: http://csobeech.com/files/MidContinentBattery-9015607.pdf

[bradp]

It’s like the $25 dollar I just spent for 6A batteries (Duracell) in some plastic for my ELT.

[Browncbr1]

I had the Dynon d2 for a while.  It works well enough to get you back on the ground.  

I sold my Aera 510 and got the 660 and have been very happy with it.  I sold the d2 and now rely on my dual G5s and 660 for ahrs.   If I had to do it over again I would have mounted the 660 vertically on the right side of the pilot side panel rather than horizontally at top of center stack.  

The 660 shows synthetic vision with traffic targets as yellow circles if connected to gdl39 3D or gtx345

Edited March 18, 2018 by Browncbr1

[DXB]

I'm sure the electric backup AIs like the Midcontent were excellent options when they came out and continue to serve those who wisely installed them quite well.

However it's hard to imagine putting one in new today given that they still have the wear-related failure potential of a mechanical gyro and are more expensive than the current digital options.  To compare:

                                              unit cost    install cost       battery cost   battery life  battery replacement  Other display functions

MidContinent Lifesaver     ~4000      (cheap?)              400!                1 hr                     3 years                       none

Garmin G5                           ~2100    (a bit more?)          150                4 hrs!                 ?similar?                      lots

I can't see picking the old electric AI options in the current market. The battery life alone makes a case for the G5 as a better backup unit (or primary with vac AI backup).  Sadly it remains fuzzy from a regulatory standpoint to back up glass, so it will likely be the Sandia Quattro  for me, or maybe the L3 ESI-500 unless another option appears at Oshkosh this year.  The notion of never needing to replace a vac pump, overhaul a vac-driven AI, or preheat the interior before startup makes the expense palatable for a CB.

[donkaye]

14 minutes ago, DXB said:

I'm sure the electric backup AIs like the Midcontent were excellent options when they came out and continue to serve those who wisely installed them quite well.

However it's hard to imagine putting one in new today given that they still have the wear-related failure potential of a mechanical gyro and are more expensive than the current digital options.  To compare:

                                              unit cost    install cost       battery cost   battery life  battery replacement  Other display functions

MidContinent Lifesaver     ~4000      (cheap?)              400!                1 hr                     3 years                       none

Garmin G5                           ~2100    (a bit more?)          150                4 hrs!                 ?similar?                      lots

I can't see picking the old electric AI options in the current market. The battery life alone makes a case for the G5 as a better backup unit (or primary with vac AI backup).  Sadly it remains fuzzy from a regulatory standpoint to back up glass, so it will likely be the Sandia Quattro  for me, or maybe the L3 ESI-500 unless another option appears at Oshkosh this year.  The notion of never needing to replace a vac pump, overhaul a vac-driven AI, or preheat the interior before startup makes the expense palatable for a CB.

If you  want a trouble free unit and great support, then pick the more expensive ESI 500 over the Quattro.  It seems many people are having trouble with the Quatro and can't get much support.

[PTK]

One backup I don’t see mentioned is the MD302. Is it a viable option?

 

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, DXB said:

To compare:

                                              unit cost    install cost       battery cost   battery life  battery replacement  Other display functions

MidContinent Lifesaver     ~4000      (cheap?)              400!                1 hr                     3 years                       none

Garmin G5                           ~2100    (a bit more?)          150                4 hrs!                 ?similar?                      lots

 

My point was that a lot of the Midcontinent ones are being taken out by those wanting the latest glass units and some people are replacing them with ones which aren't TSO'd and aren't even approved for backup.

In my case, I paid $750 for my Midcontinent, the install was slightly more than zero, but not much. It replaced a noisy, failing turn coordinator. The link I sent about battery replacement was $45 for three years, not $300. There is no software to have any glitches with and at a 7500 hours between failure rating they are time tested, fully TSO'd, not new technology. As far as battery life, I also have two airplane batteries and two alternators to provide power.

All of Garmin's literature says it is not approved for backup. Everyone wants it to be their backup so badly that they are ignoring that. Is having one safer than not having any backup? Absolutely. But Trek Lawler, Garmin's guy on Beechtalk, says that it was not tested to the standards that an instrument must be tested to be considered a backup. If there was any way that Garmin could market it as a backup, they would.

[Seth]

Thank you to all;

 

Options and what I’ve learned:

I have a Garmin 430W, GTX345, and Aera560 with WX.  I also now get ADSB weather and traffic on the 430W and on foreflight through Bluetooth.

1.  Temporary:  use iPad with AHRS and Sythetix vision until I figure out what I’m going to do.  Note, I have learned that if I wait to turn on my iPad until after my GTX 345 has booted up the AHRS runs smoothly and is not glitchy.  Odd software hiccup.

2.  Replace Aera 560 with Aera 660 in current pabelmounted location.  GTX345.  I lose WX feed as Aera 660 I think only take the ADSB signal and I like the WX feed better than the ADSB feed.  But I save $120 a year (marine sky view for $9.99 a month for everything except winds aloft).  Need different panelmouny but the dimensions are the same and it would go for now in the same place in the panel until major work is completed.

3.  Get an Aera 795/796 and move some things around a bit to get space for it on the right side.

4.  Install G5 or L3 ESI 500.  Both could be used in the future panel for different reasons.

5.  Purchased used Mid continent lifesaver for a lot less and install.

6.  Get a different iphons/small tablet device and use AHRS app and nicely attach to panel on the right side.

7.  Dynon D2 pocket panel

8.  Other expiramenral AHRS/EFIS as it’s not primary.  

Long term plan:

 

GTN750 or similae

GPSS through unit replacing the KI256A.

Not Aspen (current units - would consider new product if they release something new)

Plan to keep and repair KFC200 AP for now (could change)

Garmin GX3 maybe down the line as well.  Maybe price TXi.

That’s way down the line.  For now get a backup AHRS / EFIS artificial horizon.

I’ll flat rate fix my 430W until I decide to upgrade he GPS or when Garmin makes that decision for me.  I plan to get the best value out of my 430W I can when I make that move.

 

-Seth

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Seth

[jetdriven]

I have an aera660 and it gets weather, AHRS attitude, and traffic through the GTX345

Edited March 19, 2018 by jetdriven

[Jerry 5TJ]

I pulled an electric AI for a panel upgrade.  I gave it to a fellow pilot who had only one vacuum AI in his Cessna.  

Spinning gyro or solid state, there are now lots of low-cost ways to get that second attitude reference.  

“Friends don’t let friends fly IMC with just one AI.”

(Me, well, I have 4 attitude references.  But I have become a cautious old guy.)

 

 

[Stanton R]

Replace the KCS55 with a G5 HSI. This will give you a back up AI, airspeed, and altimeter by changing from HSI to PFD mode. It will also add GPS steering. Last put not least remove a significant  amount of weight.

[Browncbr1]

Either XM changed something or there is a difference in receiving capability between Aera 510 and 560 because I could not get the marine subscription to work with my 510 back when i still had it.  

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Either XM changed something or there is a difference in receiving capability between Aera 510 and 560 because I could not get the marine subscription to work with my 510 back when i still had it.  

The only units I've ever been able to get the nexrad radar on the Marine subscription to work on is the 396 and 496.