Aircraft Brokers

[howardld]

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/barron_thomas_fraud_charges_ponzi_204370-1.html

Makes you wonder how truthful they are when you purchase one of their "flipped" planes.

[flight2000]

One rotten apple.  Still a lot of other good brokers out there, but as always, buyer beware. 

His deal with aircraft buyers was his deposit program.  You couldn't even see the plane in person until you dropped $5K and good luck getting that back if the aircraft was a dog and you didn't want to follow through with the sale (some where, some weren't).

[John Pleisse]

At the end of the day, they are salesmen. Some behave fairly. Others don't.

[Mooney65E]

Quote: flight2000

One rotten apple.  Still a lot of other good brokers out there, but as always, buyer beware. 

His deal with aircraft buyers was his deposit program.  You couldn't even see the plane in person until you dropped $5K and good luck getting that back if the aircraft was a dog and you didn't want to follow through with the sale (some where, some weren't).

[Becca]

Having spent 1.5 years off and on searching for a plane, I had a few solid rules for myself when dealing with the seller:

1.  I wouldn't make a trip to see the airplane unless I had the airplane's tail number and at least looked at the last few pages of logs (a seller should be able to scan them in and email them to you). 

2.  No money was being transacted without a sales contract.

3.  There would always be a prebuy and any money I paid as a deposit would be refundable if I didn't like what I saw in a prebuy.

These rules pretty much keep you from dealing with shady dealers.  The dealer mentioned in this chain, for instance, never even bothered to return my phone calls, let alone give me a tail number or answer any questions over the phone about the planes he had listed on his web site, so I never had to deal with him.    Yes, in theory you might miss out on a "deal" if you follow these rules, but some deals aren't worth having.

[FlyDave]

A friend told me about one of these situations with BT about 2 years ago. He kept the deposit after an inspection revealed many issues the buyer was not willing to deal with. They have a judgement against him. That and $1.75 will get you a cup of coffee. What a scumbag.

I bought my plane from a very reputable FBO and didn't use an Escrow account. But has anyone else used an escrow account so this doesn't happen?

[Rustler]

Should anyone think their bad experience with Barron Thomas is merely an isolated event, here're two letters necessitated by his reluctance to return a deposit. I think they are self explanatory.

 

2 April 2007

Mr. Barron Thomas
Barron Thomas Aviation, Inc.
14700 N. Airport Drive
Scottsdale, AZ 85260

Dear Mr. Thomas:

This is a letter of demand for payment.

I am seeking return of the Five Thousand Dollar ($5,000)  deposit I made with Barron Thomas Aviation, Inc., on 15 December 2006. That deposit was made pursuant to our agreement (copy enclosed) to hold for inspection one 1976 Grumman Tiger. Following that inspection, I elected not to pursue purchase and personally informed you as to that decision and the reasons for it in your office. The required 90 days have expired (the aircraft has not sold).

Since 16 March 2007, I have spoken with Lori at your office to request this deposit return, and I have e-mailed you twice (3/21/07 and 3/27/07) requesting a refund.  In each case, I have not received any answer, and I have not received the refund owed me.

As a result of this recalcitrance in returning my deposit, I am now demanding return of my $5,000 deposit within five days of receipt of this letter. If this refund is not forthcoming,I shall be forced to pursue this matter vigorously, seeking damages and interest.


Sincerely,




Copies:     Arizona Attorney General's Office
        Consumer Protection & Advocacy Section
        Consumer Information & Complaints
        1275 West Washington
        Phoenix, Arizona 85007

        Better Business Bureau
        Greater Phoenix

 

And the resloution . . . .

 

Ms. Pamela L. Crabtree, Legal Assistant
State of Arizona
Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Information and Complaints
1275 West Washington
Phoenix, AZ 85007-2926

        RE: CIC 07-06931 BARRON THOMAS AVIATION

Dear Ms. Crabtree:

Thank you for your April 17, 2007, letter.

I appreciate your interest and whatever action you have taken. Apparently, it has worked. Mr. Thomas suddenly became interested in settling this matter, and I received a $5,000 check from him yesterday. It has been deposited, and I assume it will clear without problem.

Please consider this matter closed unless you hear from me that the check has not cleared, in which case I shall request a reopening of the case.

Again, thank you for your help.


Sincerely,

 

It was such a disappointment dealing with him, but it turned out OK in the long run. I bought a really lovely Cheetah, then the Mooney, each of those transactions being absoultely straight forward and producing lasting friends.

 

[John Pleisse]

A lot of the title search companies in OKC provide full service escrow work. If you zero in on a great bird, $175 will get you (within one day-sent via pdf e-mail) the following:

1) The entire FAA file including all STC's and 337's

2) A full Title seacrh and chain of ownership

3) A purchase agreement review

4) And full escrow services

Also, if you barrow money for the plane, the lender will require escrow, so get pre approved and use their money in escrow for deposits, then contribute your down payment at settlement. Also, the boiler plate AOPA pre purchase contract and an escrow account at your hometown bank are much cheaper.

Baron Thomas shenanigans…that’s whacked!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[N9937c]

Brokers      My theory is when they have gotten such a bad reputation around town, They turn to selling airplanes.

Larry

[jelswick]

I brokered aircraft for 6 years until this market tanked and it amazed me why people said it was so refreshing dealing with us and the horror stories they had from other brokers.  I just never understood how those types could sleep at night.  Really not hard at all, just treat people the same way you'd want to be treated and that business grew without having to advertise it until about 2007-2008.  I only ended up burned by two customers using that philosophy and for the many, many friends I made from it (not that much money in that business!), it was worth the experience with the two bums.

[danb35]

Quote: N4352H

Also, if you barrow money for the plane, the lender will require escrow

[flight2000]

Quote: danb35

Not so--or at least it wasn't the case when I bought '48Q a few years ago.  Have things changed?  I'll agree that there are a lot of benefits to using an escrow service, and I may do that with my next purchase.

[jetdriven]

we funded ourt 201 with a temp loan from our retirement account because banks are a PITA to deal with buying a plane.  We didnt use escrow as they wanted 500$ to escrow the 5000$ deposit.   Bank of America wanted something like a 12% APR and limited flying to 150 or so hours  ay ear, even FNB of Pryor wanted like over 10%. Completely uncompetetive.  What was this, 1973?    In the end, we refinanced the plane with our credit union easily for 6.25% on a 10 year term. 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: flight2000

Not so--or at least it wasn't the case when I bought '48Q a few years ago.  Have things changed?  I'll agree that there are a lot of benefits to using an escrow service, and I may do that with my next purchase.

[noel56z]

Many years ago I was told by my then  Chief Pilot that BT was  a true "shyster of the 1st order" Wonder how he has surviced this long.

[howardld]

I should have started the thread by adding that I purchased my plane from "All America" several years ago and was very happy with the experience.

[RJBrown]

 My experience dealing with brokers 2 years ago consisted only of discussions over the phone. They seemed to have a vested interest in pumping up the market. I made offers on planes that were inline with sales I had tracked only to be treated rudely. AAA was the worst being verbally abusive and hanging up. I believe the pressure placed on brokers by the down market created quite a bit of frustration for them. Anyone who had carefully tracked the market would not have believed the prices ask. I believe that patience, a sales contract that protects the buyer and escrowing everything including the deposit is the way to go. Remember the broker works for the seller NOT you. The more he can pump up the deal the better it is for him. It has got to be a tough way to make a living, especially in the last few years. Having to lowball sellers and highball buyers just to find a middle ground would be quite a grind.

 Last fall a broker in Iowa told me over the phone that they owned a Rocket. I ask him if he was in a position to take my J in trade. He said they had taken the plane in on trade for a Malibu turboprop and owned it. He repeated that they were in a position to entertain a trade. I even outlined a basic proposal in dollars.  He said he would have to see my plane but it sounded reasonable and we set up a meeting.

 Fortunately the trip was just a side trip while visiting my in laws in Illinois. It gave me a chance to take my father in law, a retired Air Force SAC B52 pilot, on a 266 mile round trip. Every thing I had been told over the phone turned out to be a lie. The Dr still owned the plane and NO one was interested in trading.

Some may be better than others but my experience shows them to be a bunch of used car salesmen.

[rorythedog]

Quote: RJBrown

 My experience dealing with brokers 2 years ago consisted only of discussions over the phone. They seemed to have a vested interest in pumping up the market. I made offers on planes that were inline with sales I had tracked only to be treated rudely. AAA was the worst being verbally abusive and hanging up.

Some may be better than others but my experience shows them to be a bunch of used car salesmen.

[PTK]

Some years ago I was in the process of purchasing a Mooney from a "reputable" broker in San Antonio.  I did my due diligence and decided to proceed to buy.  I gave a deposit to the broker and the airplane was scheduled for pre-purchase inspection at Maxwell.  The inspection was good and decided to go forward.  I'm in NJ and planned to catch a flight to San Antonio to close and pickup the airplane and fly it back to NJ.  Also I had arranged for a Mooney pilot to fly with me back to NJ and I would pay for his flight back.  I confirmed everything with the "reputable" broker a few days before I bought the airline tickets.  All was a go and I had airline tickets and was ready to fly to San Antonio.  My flight was for a Sat early morning departure from PHL.  I receive a phone call late Friday evening informing me that the airplane was not available!!! NOT AVAILABLE!!  To make a long story short they took my deposit and God only knows what they did with the airplane.  If they even had controll of the sale of the airplane.

It took me almost an entire year and legal action to get my deposit back!!  I did receive my deposit less Maxwell's bill which was not that much thankfully, with a letter crying that it costs them money to inventory airplanes, etc etc.  

Fact is they tried to pull a fast one.  They collected my deposit with no intent to sell me the airplane!!

Lesson:  DO NOT TRUST such used car salesmen!!  ALWAYS use an escrow service.

[co2bruce]

I'm sorry to hear all these horror stories. I just purchased a 99 Mooney Eagle from a broker (Premier Aircraft Sales in Ft Lauderdale) and I could not be happier with their performance. I feel they they went out of their way to find me the plane I was looking for (at a very fair price), took me though the pre buy, and even offered to help on the insurance and financing if I needed. I worked with Mike Fabianiac, and I would highly recommend these guys.   

[Bennett]

Much like boat brokers.  Some really great ones, but far too many are more than a bit shady. I've been lucky in both circumstances, but much of that comes from being extremely wary.  When I decided to sell my LSA (long story) and get back to Mooneys, I negotiated a flat fee with a broker I know for the Mooney research, pre-buy advice, title search, etc. and I retained the broker to act as my negotiator when we found the right airplane.  We both combed as many sources as we could find - some obsure, and some on dealer only networks. After many, many phone calls by the broker checking out the specifics of various aircraft, and conversations with me with pros and cons about each aircraft, we settled on a couple to get serious about. The broker knew aircraft - not just Mooneys, but enough about them to check with his profesional sources to make sure we were asking the right questions. We agreed that a certain private sale M20J met my requirements. The pre-buy was done by LASAR, a firm I've worked with for over twenty years.  I asked them to be thorough - more than the usual pre-buy, and they were.  A number of items showed up that were surprises (at least to me and my broker), and I was ready to prove the adage:"The best money you will ever spend is on a survey (pre-buy) that reveals that this is not a boat (airplane) that you want to buy". I was ready to have the airplane ferried back to the would be seller, when conversations with my broker, and Robert at LASAR convinced me that repairs could be done to make the plane absolutely right, if the seller would agree to reduce his price to cover what proved to be very expensive and, in my opinion, extensive repairs. My broker had already negotiated a price well below asking, and I was certain that the seller would not agree to a VERY substantial further reduction. My broker persisted (rember he is working on a flat fee from me, buy or not buy, and there was no financial incentive to push the sale), and to my surprise (I'm not that good a negotiator) the seller agreed to the new price which made the whole project worthwhile.  Then an old bank loan turned up that had not been cleared, although the loan was paid off. The bank in question had been sold to another bank, and it was a mess. In three days my broker managed to have the successor bank clear title. Anyway, I highly recommend Craig Vincent at SkyView Aviation in Tracy, CA as a buyer's broker. He is really a good guy, and I would definitely work with him again if I were looking for another airplane, but it is hard to believe that I would give up N335BB.

[DrBill]

Anyone deal with AIRMARK in Lexington KY ?  They are listing a 20E I'm really interested in but out of 5 emails I sent them they have only replied to the first.  To me, that's not a good start.

I wrote a letter to the owner indicating this and asking if the plane was still available.

 

Bill, Charlotte, NC

 

[FullyArticulate]

Quote: DrBill

Anyone deal with AIRMARK in Lexington KY ?  They are listing a 20E I'm really interested in but out of 5 emails I sent them they have only replied to the first.  To me, that's not a good start.

[Cris]

Over the years I have purchased/sold a number of Aircraft primarily from individuals with no particular issues. I never sent deposits or requested them. Mostly it was done on a handshake. I always got and gave a full tank of gas. One Mooney that I bought from  a dealer was from Henry Weber & that went the same way. However in the recent purchase of my Eagle which started Thanksgiving of 2010 with a broker, I was asked to send a $5000 deposit. There were any number of issues that arose in that the owner was in Fla, A/C in Michigan, broker in Indianna & then the owner was out of the country and the owners mechanic would not cooperate for whatever reason. We could not get copies of the logs & then the A/C could not be moved from the hanger due to "snow" in front of the door. This went on for months with the occational request to send a deposit to which I steadfastly refused although I did finally say that I would use an escrow service (AOPA). In the end I never did send a deposit but I did use the escrow service & purchased title insurance as I just became to uneasy with the whole deal. The broker in this case was Jeff Fine of Fine Aircraft & he did a very good job of keeping me interested while trying to represent an unusual set of circumstances in a positive way. He was a true professional & recognized my discomfort with a deposit. I spent way more in acqusion costs that i ever did in the past but in these days I think you just have to do that for ones own piece of mind. My only regret was that I used the owners "other" mechanic at a well know shop to do the prebuy as the owner wanted his airline pilot to fly the A/C from its hanger in upstate Mi. to a big Detroit airport wher the airline pilot could easily get to work. Of course then the plane would not start, the altrnator broke & the pilot had to go back to his airline job etc. etc. and more time passed till he came back. I wanted a first class prebuy on a 325 Hr airframe & was overcharged for the work as several items were missed including an obviously repaired gear door that was not logged. Apparently that was from the snow in front of the hanger door. In the scheme of things the costs to repair were relatively minor but would have been caught at an MSC. There were a number of discrepancieis (fuel tank leaks Avionics out of tolerance) & the broker worked with me & the owner & took a hit himself to get to a happy medium. This would probably be seen as a scam by most people but if you are willing to be patient & "protect" yourself it is possible to get a great A/C at a more than fair price. BTW I do recommend Jeff Fine. I just wish the old ways with a handshake, a smile & a full tank of gas were still the norm.

[PTK]

Quote: RJBrown

 AAA was the worst being verbally abusive and hanging up.