prop seal question

[jaylw314]

  On 9/25/2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Armour said:

What shop does Joey use ? Curious if it's the same shop that Gann uses (and I need to ask who that is) 

I am on here this morning searching because my 3 blade McCauley is slinging grease/oil. It was last overhauled in 2003 (Texas) at a cost of $2,760   New deice  boots were $870 of that.

I was looking for info I had read before that gave the reason for a reseal instead of an overhaul. I know engines but my prop experience is very limited. I'm not sure when the last time it was greased what I would call: the old grease was pushed out with fresh grease. If the grease was old, then it would tend to come out easier. Going to go back and read above what someone said about a McCauley and fittings...if any ?

Edit: I see where Cody said McCauley has less grease. But does it have zerks or places to install them to service ? Do they have to be shipped assembled...... As in could it go to Cody ?

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McCauley's have no zerks and cannot be regreased in the field

Edited September 25, 2017 by jaylw314

[Cody Stallings]

  On 9/25/2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Armour said:

What shop does Joey use ? Curious if it's the same shop that Gann uses (and I need to ask who that is) 

I am on here this morning searching because my 3 blade McCauley is slinging grease/oil. It was last overhauled in 2003 (Texas) at a cost of $2,760   New deice  boots were $870 of that.

I was looking for info I had read before that gave the reason for a reseal instead of an overhaul. I know engines but my prop experience is very limited. I'm not sure when the last time it was greased what I would call: the old grease was pushed out with fresh grease. If the grease was old, then it would tend to come out easier. Going to go back and read above what someone said about a McCauley and fittings...if any ?

Edit: I see where Cody said McCauley has less grease. But does it have zerks or places to install them to service ? Do they have to be shipped assembled...... As in could it go to Cody ?

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Wow!!!!

That is an unbelievable price for Back in those days.

 

No Sir, your propeller has no grease fittings of any kind.

Thats one of the downfalls to McCauley Propellers.

 

Where are you located at? Might not have to ship it at all.

One of my trucks might be able to pick it up, if my shop was what you was planning to do

[rbridges]

Just spoke with the shop.  They sent the prop to Sensenich Propeller Services in Gainesville, GA.  Looks like it's gonna be around $2500.  Ouch.  He read the list, and it included seals, a bearing, labor and some $700 rod.  Anyone got an idea what rod that would be?  Joe said he wasn't sure what that was.  

[Mooneymite]

  On 10/2/2017 at 5:55 PM, rbridges said:

Looks like it's gonna be around $2500.  Ouch. 

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Yes, OUCH!  Sorry to hear that.

[Hank]

Maybe @Cody Stallings will know, he's the resident professional. 

[jaylw314]

  On 10/2/2017 at 5:55 PM, rbridges said:

Just spoke with the shop.  They sent the prop to Sensenich Propeller Services in Gainesville, GA.  Looks like it's gonna be around $2500.  Ouch.  He read the list, and it included seals, a bearing, labor and some $700 rod.  Anyone got an idea what rod that would be?  Joe said he wasn't sure what that was.  

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I think the rod is one of the connecting rods between the hub piston and each blade to control the pitch.

Could be worse, I sent mine in for a reseal expecting it to be $1500-2000, and ended up needing a new prop.

[rbridges]

  On 10/2/2017 at 6:51 PM, jaylw314 said:

I think the rod is one of the connecting rods between the hub piston and each blade to control the pitch.

Could be worse, I sent mine in for a reseal expecting it to be $1500-2000, and ended up needing a new prop.

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That's an ouch.  It had been several days, and I hadn't heard back.  I was starting to worry about something like that happening.

[jaylw314]

  On 10/2/2017 at 7:00 PM, rbridges said:

That's an ouch.  It had been several days, and I hadn't heard back.  I was starting to worry about something like that happening.

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I didn't hear anything until we got the estimate.  When, I called the prop shop, they did respond pretty quickly and told me what their findings were and what was out of limits/damaged.  I was pretty careful not to sound like I was questioning their conclusion, though.  I had asked specifically for a repair/reseal for the hub, but I don't know if that requires measuring the prop base with a micrometer. 

FWIW, my IA said the prop shop almost never calls him anymore, they just send the written estimates.  He said he thinks its because too many owners have gotten into arguments with them about the costs and what repairs are needed.  Unfortunately, they're pretty much the only game in the region.  Given that @Cody Stallings is our resident prop guru, I might bite the bullet and ship my prop out to him next time I have a prop issue, which is hopefully never

[Jerry Pressley]

had a bad experience with that Sensenich shop.  Their man picked up two three blade props from my shop in Kentucky.  never heard back from them.  one had two good blades and the other had one.  They were going to make one good one and send the other hub back.  a month later I contacted them and was told that the FAA from Atlanta had come in and made them scrap all of my parts.  3 nice blades and two hubs......I think you just got the same treatment i am sorry top say

[Cody Stallings]

  On 10/2/2017 at 5:55 PM, rbridges said:

Just spoke with the shop.  They sent the prop to Sensenich Propeller Services in Gainesville, GA.  Looks like it's gonna be around $2500.  Ouch.  He read the list, and it included seals, a bearing, labor and some $700 rod.  Anyone got an idea what rod that would be?  Joe said he wasn't sure what that was.  

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The Rod: is the Pitch change rod.

its what centers, an actuates all of the moving components inside the propeller.

[Cody Stallings]

  On 10/2/2017 at 10:17 PM, acpartswhse said:

had a bad experience with that Sensenich shop.  Their man picked up two three blade props from my shop in Kentucky.  never heard back from them.  one had two good blades and the other had one.  They were going to make one good one and send the other hub back.  a month later I contacted them and was told that the FAA from Atlanta had come in and made them scrap all of my parts.  3 nice blades and two hubs......I think you just got the same treatment i am sorry top say

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That's a bad deal.

FAA don't make Airworthiness calls inside a Repairstation.

Sounds Strange, but it's true.

They aren't on the Roster of Return to service(Inspector) within the Repairstation.

I hope you got your parts back.

[Jerry Pressley]

Cody,  what is involved in converting to oil filled hub?  More than simply changing the grease fittings to the appropriate oil fittings I assume?   Normally I hear a jumbo of too complicated to go into details etc. You are the one shop that never worries about giving trade secrets away in order to preserve shop profits thank goodness.

[Jerry Pressley]

No, never got the parts back but did have a chance a short time later to buy a nice 3 blade from the PA office of Sensenich....hmmm I wonder

[Cody Stallings]

  On 10/6/2017 at 2:27 PM, acpartswhse said:

Cody,  what is involved in converting to oil filled hub?  More than simply changing the grease fittings to the appropriate oil fittings I assume?   Normally I hear a jumbo of too complicated to go into details etc. You are the one shop that never worries about giving trade secrets away in order to preserve shop profits thank goodness.

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There is a lot of machine work that goes into the oil filled conversion, an some parts.

Most places that do the conversion are in the $2000-$2500 range for the conversion.

I don’t do the oil filled mod in my shop, I don’t believe in it.

McCauley tried it with their one piece hubs, an they have a hard enough time holding holding the oil.

The two piece Hartzell will do no better.

I’m my eyes, B hub is the way to go.

Doing the Mod at O/H is $1100 shy of a B hub.

Thats just my Opinion of course.

[Jerry Pressley]

Thanks Cody.  Glad to know there is more than fittings.  Jerry Pressley

[Jerry Pressley]

I have not had that much luck with a B hub.  The old hub is a solid rock compared.  I bought an early C (n900LP) that had 5 gear ups in 2 years and each time the hub went to  good shops for new blades.  4 different shops. The original hub was used each time.  And I have yet to have a B hub without the shelf showing damage after any kind of prop strike.   I think Hartzell has once again found a way to keep profits up even after a big decline in new prop sales.  Not only my opinion but on 4 prop shops I deal with. 

jerry   

[Shadrach]

  On 9/12/2017 at 1:23 PM, Andy95W said:

Sorry, Gus, this is definitely not how I was taught and not what I do on Hartzell propellers.  

After removing the opposite side zerk fitting, I pump grease into the hub until I start seeing some fresh grease mixing with the old that comes out of the removed zerk hole.  It takes about 1/4 or so of the tube of grease.  

My prop, and the other Hartzells I help with, do not leak grease.

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Andy, you should stop doing that unless you're working on a steel hunbbed machine (I know of no light singles that use a steel hub). Hartzle has a service bulletin about it. AMT magazine did an article on it as well.

Aluminum hub Hartzells do not have an inner seal on the bearing race. You may get away with servicing the hub as you've described once maybe even twice, but it will fill the hub with grease. When it gets full enough, the next time the prop is cycled the piston will push the grease out the through the only path available...past the blade shank seals. Once they've herniated the prop must be opened and resealed.

From Hartzell manual 202A volume 11:

2 In-service lubrication: Using a hand      operated grease gun, apply approved grease to each lubrication fitting until grease emerges from the removed lube fitting hole in a steady flow or until a maximum of 1 fl. oz (30 ml) of grease has been applied, whichever comes first. 

This is the front half of a Hartzell aluminum hub (3 blade). One can see that there is nothing to stop grease from filling the cylinder. There is a grove for the outer seal, a bearing race and that's it.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Shadrach

[Guest]

Comanches, Beech Bonanzas among many others use Steel hub Hartzell propellers.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

  On 10/15/2017 at 4:35 AM, Shadrach said:

Andy, you should stop doing that unless you're working on a steel hunbbed machine (I know of no light singles that use a steel hub). Hartzle has a service bulletin about it. AMT magazine did an article on it as well.

Aluminum hub Hartzells do not have an inner seal on the bearing race. You may get away with servicing the hub as you've described once maybe even twice, but it will fill the hub with grease. When it gets full enough, the next time the prop is cycled the piston will push the grease out the through the only path available...past the blade shank seals. Once they've herniated the prop must be opened and resealed.

From Hartzell manual 202A volume 11:

2 In-service lubrication: Using a hand      operated grease gun, apply approved grease to each lubrication fitting until grease emerges from the removed lube fitting hole in a steady flow or until a maximum of 1 fl. oz (30 ml) of grease has been applied, whichever comes first. 

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Good information, thanks Ross.  If nothing else, it is a waste of grease.  The old A&Ps who taught me 25 years ago were old school.

In all those years on multiple airplanes, I've never had or seen a problem- but I would rather follow the manual.

It'd be nice to hear what @Cody Stallings would say about the potential for damage.

[Shadrach]

  On 10/16/2017 at 3:18 AM, Andy95W said:

Good information, thanks Ross.  If nothing else, it is a waste of grease.  The old A&Ps who taught me 25 years ago were old school.

In all those years on multiple airplanes, I've never had or seen a problem- but I would rather follow the manual.

It'd be nice to hear what @Cody Stallings would say about the potential for damage.

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I speak from experience and not the hypothetical. My prop was overserviced during annual just 2 years after a prop overhaul. The kind folks at East Coast propeller picked up my prop and resealed at no charge. I drove up Lititz, PA to retrieve my freshly sealed prop. I was given a shop tour and an in depth explanation of the issue (the pic I posted was taken in the shop while he was explaining how and why my seals herniated).

Edited October 16, 2017 by Shadrach

[carusoam]

Great photo, Ross!

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

  On 10/15/2017 at 11:16 AM, M20Doc said:

Comanches, Beech Bonanzas among many others use Steel hub Hartzell propellers.

Clarence

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Indeed, you're correct. I took a gander at my neighbor's Camanche 250 today. It is a steel hub with what appear to be clamp style retainers holding the shanks to the hub.

[Guest]

  On 10/16/2017 at 3:18 AM, Andy95W said:

Good information, thanks Ross.  If nothing else, it is a waste of grease.  The old A&Ps who taught me 25 years ago were old school.

In all those years on multiple airplanes, I've never had or seen a problem- but I would rather follow the manual.

It'd be nice to hear what @Cody Stallings would say about the potential for damage.

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Andy,

You're not alone in being taught that.  I was told in with the new out with the old, pump until you see clean fresh grease coming out the trailing edge hole.

Clarence

 

[Cody Stallings]

Out with the old an In with the new with a compact Hartzell(Aluminum Hub) Propeller, will get you on a first name basis with your local Propeller Repairman.

As stated above, these propellers have no internal seal to keep the grease out of the places it’s not suppose to go.

Just a couple shots per blade bearing assembly is all that is needed.

The older Clamp style propellers don’t suffer from this issue.

each clamp is its own.

Nothing to overflow into.

with the newer style propellers, the old school way of doing things(not saying it’s bad, cause it has worked for years) does not apply.

Follow your Owner Manuals When servicing these propellers.

The pictured Propeller is off of a C-210 that had been acting as a fixed pitch.

Govenor had been traded out twice, an The engine was fixing to come off because the A&P was stating the oil transfer collar was no good.

After removing one of the grease fittings my suspicion was confirmed( it blew out of my hand at 20mph as I was taking it out of the hub), Propeller had been over serviced, coupled with a leaky rear hub ORing that allowed pressurized engine oil to aid in the grease Hydraulicly locking up the Propeller.

Cleaned the Propeller out, added a fresh set of Orings an she was good to go.

[Andy95W]

  On 10/16/2017 at 3:55 AM, Shadrach said:

I speak from experience and not the hypothetical. My prop was overserviced during annual just 2 years after a prop overhaul. The kind folks at East Coast propeller picked up my prop and resealed at no charge. I drove up Lititz, PA to retrieve my freshly sealed prop. I was given a shop tour and an in depth explanation of the issue (the pic I posted was taken in the shop while he was explaining how and why my seals herniated).

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I believed you, the quote from the manual was enough for me.  It was nice seeing pictures and hearing Cody's experiences considering his background.