Ovations Needed for Savvy Analysis!

[Jeff_S]

Hey folks,

Those of you with Ovations and an engine monitor that outputs to a data log (which should be just about everyone, barring some of the early-generation G1000s that haven't been upgraded to WAAS) should open an account with Savvy Analysis (http://www.savvyanalysis.com) so you can load your engine monitor data up there on a regular basis. This has two benefits. There is no charge for a basic account, so you can load your flights up and use their online analysis tools to explore your own engine characteristics to your heart's content.

If you choose to pay for the Pro service, then you can get Savvy's help with their expert analysis, but what's even better, is you can get access to their report card that shows you how well you are doing compared to others in your class on the most common engine parameters. But here's why we need more Ovations to join in. Right now they don't have enough Ovations in the system to form a "cohort" that allows them to do this group analysis. Strangely, they do have a cohort for Eagles, but I guess with the detuned HP of an Eagle they didn't feel they could lump Ovations into that group. So whether or not you end up subscribing to their service, you can help out the Ovation public at large by posting your data so they can form a cohort and start tracking our models across the board.

And in case you're not aware of Savvy Analysis, another great feature of the paid service is that they will automatically run their Failing Exhaust Valve Analysis (FEVA™) on every flight you import, so that if their algorithm detects the potential for a failing valve they will trigger an automatic Alert out to your email so you can have it checked out.  I am in no way affiliated with Savvy other than as a customer, but I do think this is a great service and I highly recommend it for anyone who has an engine monitor from which they can dump the data. It gives good insight into how to operate your engine. Also, one of our own MSers is one of the analysts who routinely helps me with my flight data (I won't "out" him in case he wants to remain anonymous!).

But really, Ovation owners, start uploading your data! It's free and easy, and very insightful even if you don't pay Savvy a dime.  Thanks!

[Bob_Belville]

Jeff, I hope you won't mind me expanding your appeal to other model owners. In addition to Eagles Savvy has identified another cohort for F/Js. That combo surprises me a little in that the Es have the same suffix IO360 A1A as the Fs while the Js are a variant of the IO360, and not all the same. I should think that the engine would correlate  better than rear seat leg room. Perhaps Es should be in the same cohort? @kortopates? That would leave Cs, Ks and the newer models that need to join in. 

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

Hey folks,

Those of you with Ovations and an engine monitor that outputs to a data log (which should be just about everyone, barring some of the early-generation G1000s that haven't been upgraded to WAAS) should open an account with Savvy Analysis (http://www.savvyanalysis.com) so you can load your engine monitor data up there on a regular basis. This has two benefits. There is no charge for a basic account, so you can load your flights up and use their online analysis tools to explore your own engine characteristics to your heart's content.

If you choose to pay for the Pro service, then you can get Savvy's help with their expert analysis, but what's even better, is you can get access to their report card that shows you how well you are doing compared to others in your class on the most common engine parameters. But here's why we need more Ovations to join in. Right now they don't have enough Ovations in the system to form a "cohort" that allows them to do this group analysis. Strangely, they do have a cohort for Eagles, but I guess with the detuned HP of an Eagle they didn't feel they could lump Ovations into that group. So whether or not you end up subscribing to their service, you can help out the Ovation public at large by posting your data so they can form a cohort and start tracking our models across the board.

And in case you're not aware of Savvy Analysis, another great feature of the paid service is that they will automatically run their Failing Exhaust Valve Analysis (FEVA™) on every flight you import, so that if their algorithm detects the potential for a failing valve they will trigger an automatic Alert out to your email so you can have it checked out.  I am in no way affiliated with Savvy other than as a customer, but I do think this is a great service and I highly recommend it for anyone who has an engine monitor from which they can dump the data. It gives good insight into how to operate your engine. Also, one of our own MSers is one of the analysts who routinely helps me with my flight data (I won't "out" him in case he wants to remain anonymous!).

But really, Ovation owners, start uploading your data! It's free and easy, and very insightful even if you don't pay Savvy a dime.  Thanks!

Thanks for the call out Jeff!

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Jeff, I hope you won't mind me expanding your appeal to other model owners. In addition to Eagles Savvy has identified another cohort for F/Js. That combo surprises me a little in that the Es have the same suffix IO360 A1A as the Fs while the Js are a variant of the IO360, and not all the same. I should think that the engine would correlate  better than rear seat leg room. Perhaps Es should be in the same cohort? @kortopates? That would leave Cs, Ks and the newer models that need to join in. 

As Bob points out it is a bit of challenge. We have a combined F&J's cohort that have the same fuselage and same engine except mostly except for differences in magneto's (Dual or separate), magneto timing which goes both ways (20 or 25) - even in the J models alone - plus we have baffling differences. The short body E probably has more in common with the mid body F&J than differences.

The M20S and R's are a challenge too, given the upgrade options that many have done. We have M20S in 3 different engine HP variants possible in the S and 2 in the Ovation and they are really all three different variants of the same -G model except the 310HP Screamin Eagle/O3 variant is really an -N (with also a different prop). 

I've passed on your comments to Chris at Savvy that manages the report card reporting software. We've discussed some time ago and our current s/w capabilities really prevent being able to segregate these based on more than Mooney model, but the option does exist to combine groups like S & R's just as done with F&J's now.

[Godfather]

Recently upgraded from a jpi 700 to a 900 so downloads should be easier. Might have to look at this service. 

[smccray]

Great service- I use it for my J.

I think it would be great if Savvy would combine the S and the R. In the absence of single model info combined data is bettet than nothing. Frankly, a screaming eagle belongs in the ovation category anyway. 

Edit- if I'm not correct, savvy can tell the difference in the different HP models based on the takeoff rpm.  I would bet that the R/S combined cohort is at least 280 hp.  I would probably at least group the 280 & 310 together since very few of the 310 HP variety will cruise at 2700 rpm.  The basic eagle is what- max 2400 rpm?  That could give you a very bad comp if normal ops cruise at 2500 rpm. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by smccray

[Txbyker]

I'm an Ovation Pro subscriber too Jeff. I'll be sure to upload some more flights and do a better job of keeping them up.

Russ

[Mark89114]

I finally figured out how to download....will be doing this in near future.

[kortopates]

An update. Savvy now does support the "Report Card" reporting on the M20S & M20R as a combined cohort that Jeff brought up with this thread. Next in line with Chris at Savvy is a solution for reporting on the E, either with or without F/J models. (F/J models are supported now) 

Edited August 30, 2017 by kortopates
correct F's and clarify J models

[ArtVandelay]

40 minutes ago, kortopates said:

An update. Savvy now does support the "Report Card" reporting on the M20S & M20R as a combined cohort that Jeff brought up with this thread. Next in line with Chris at Savvy is a solution for reporting on the E, F & J models. 

Js don't need to be combined, Ive gotten a report card already.

[Bob_Belville]

38 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Js don't need to be combined, Ive gotten a report card already.

Ain't all about you. 

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Js don't need to be combined, Ive gotten a report card already.

You're right Teejay, F/J's are available now,  how Chris will provide support for E's as combined with F/J's or some other way.  I was presuming a combination and I should not since Chris will do some analysis to decide (and probably some tradeoffs too).

I edited the twice correct and clarify too.

Edited August 30, 2017 by kortopates

[Bob_Belville]

10 minutes ago, kortopates said:

You're right Teejay, J's are available now and it should have been worded more like how Chris will provide support for E & F's either as combined with J's or some other way.  I was presuming a combination and I should not since Chris will do some analysis to decide (and probably some tradeoffs too).

I edited the above post to clarify too.

Yeah, well, @Marauder and I don't need no stinkin' help from no stinkin' Js anyhow.

[kortopates]

8 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah, well, @Marauder and I don't need no stinkin' help from no stinkin' Js anyhow.

That's for sure!

[Jeff_S]

I've tested my report card...some interesting results for sure. I have some questions that I'll write up and post here. I was going to send them directly to Paul but figured it might be good to get some general feedback on them. My overriding question is that the report card seems to overstate how hard I am running my engine in cruise, at least based on my understanding of things. But let me study the data a little more and lay out my thoughts. Thanks to Paul and the guys at Savvy for working so quickly on this, though...I'm a bit of a data wonk so it's fun and educational to have this at my finger tips!

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah, well, @Marauder and I don't need no stinkin' help from no stinkin' Js anyhow.

I just corrected my post above, support for @Marauder F is available now combined with the J that is a F/J cohort. 

[Jeff_S]

Okay, here are some excerpts from my first report card. I'm posting them here to let others see how this works, but also to get some feedback from the group and from Paul and maybe help Savvy modify their algorithms. I think there are one or two places where the data is a bit bizarre. First, the title:

I've got 33 flights in the system, so question #1 is how does the algorithm decide which ones to use for the report card? Presumably it has to be a certain duration with a cruise segment that is identifiable, but it would be good to know how that's derived. But you can see there are currently 48 M20 S/Rs categorized in the database -- we need more!

Next is percent power:

Guilty as charged, why have a Mooney if you're not going for meaningful speed?! However, I'm curious how the percent power is calculated. Does it take into account LOP operations, as that is how I always fly.  That's a question for Paul and Savvy.

Next is altitude:

Apparently one of my flights is the outlier, as it shows my top end at 15,800 feet which is also the highest in the cohort. That was my trip back from Kerville to Atlanta. But this must be GPS altitude, as my indicated altitude was 15K.  No big deal, just an observation.

Next we have TAS, which is where one of my questions comes in:

My speeds fall generally in what you would expect from an Ovation at normal cruise altitudes. I can't imagine anyone hitting a TAS of 221 knots in an S/R even with 310hp, so perhaps that is a ground speed number.  That's a question for Savvy as well, but again, that's where having more data will help to normalize these results.

Now things heat up with my bird, factually:

and...

Like many Ovation owners, I struggle with #5 CHT in climb because of the alternator placement. I haven't yet drilled the pixie hole, but it doesn't stay at 400° for long so I just watch that. I'm more interested in the data on max CHT in cruise, because this does seem abnormally high based on my in-flight analysis. Once I am in cruise I strive to keep the highest CHT at 350° or less and fly most legs like this, using LOP ops. So I don't know why my MEDIAN cruise CHT would be at 373°, meaning more than half the time that's where it is. I would say that it can't possibly be right, except I don't know how Savvy has defined the cruise segments.  So that's another question for Paul and Savvy.

And finally, this one:

Here is where I question at least some of the data in the database (similar to my questions with TAS above). There shouldn't be any M20 S/R that is showing 35.7" MAP at any time, unless there is a faulty gauge or something.  I wonder if there is some turbo data that got into the cohort that is skewing some things.  There could be a reasonable explanation, but I point it out so the Savvy folks can dive into it.

I didn't show all the data elements in this post, but I'll put the link here which I think will allow you to see it online if you like (not sure about their security): https://www.savvyanalysis.com/report-cards/get-report/11502.

As I said, it's great to have this data and I'm sure as more gets put into the system, and as we learn how to use it better, it will be very helpful in managing our engines. Thanks again to the Savvy folks!

 

 

[carusoam]

Interesting...

IO550s in Mooney's are either NA or TN, no TCs....(?)

35.7"hg would require a very cold day, below SL....(?)

See if Paul has an explanation for the data range selection.

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I believe the HP comes from the engine monitor, at least it does for my JPI830, so Savvy is just reporting what got logged.

Ditto for the ground speed.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

" I don't know why my MEDIAN cruise CHT would be at 373°... "

It is not Median "Cruise CHT", it is Median "Maximum CHT in Cruise".  Out of 18 flights, nine times you cruised with a maximum CHT above 373°, nine times below.  That is probably good in its consistency, since nine times were between a very narrow 373° and 387°.  Your "Percent Power in Cruise" matches that pretty well, too, as well as your "Speed in Cruise".

Edited August 30, 2017 by Ah-1 Cobra Pilot
added info

[Jeff_S]

I understand that point. My question is at what time during "cruise flight" do they start to measure, because once settled into what I consider "cruise flight" those temps seem high. That's what I'm hoping to clarify.

[Txbyker]

Jeff,

I have the same airframe but when I select reports and the new beta it says not available for my plane.  How did you generate the report?

Russ

[carusoam]

Hey Paul @kortopates when you get a moment...?

Any insight for the questions above?

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Hey Paul @kortopates when you get a moment...?

Any insight for the questions above?

Best regards,

-a-

@Jeff_S & Folks, good questions and happy to respond, but you'll need to give us some time. I have a large queue of aircraft this morning and then the a second half of my day is all flight instructing. We currently have one our data guys out of town so I am doing double duty right now and behind. Soon as I can....

[carusoam]

Great response time, Paul!

Good luck holding down the fort today.

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeff_S]

1 hour ago, Txbyker said:

Jeff,

I have the same airframe but when I select reports and the new beta it says not available for my plane.  How did you generate the report?

Russ

@Txbyker Hi Russ. I'm not sure why you wouldn't see the reports, as long as your plane is identified correctly in the system. The only other thing I wonder is if there is a minimum # of flights needed to generate the report, and perhaps you don't have that number of flights. But more likely for some reason they don't have you classified as an M20R.  It's a question for Savvy.  BTW, how did you fare in the hurricane?