Recommendations on instruments

[xcrmckenna]

I'm going to replace my airspeed indicator with a true airspeed indicator and my altimeter when I do my adsb install next month. Looking on Pacific Coasts website there are a few options and wasn't sure what to get.

 

Anyone have an opinion and or a good shop to order from? Thanks

 

 

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[Piloto]

Check with Aircraft Spruce at www.aircraftspruce.com. They have a wide variety of instruments.

José

 

[Bob - S50]

And Chief Aircraft has one true airspeed indicator.  $750 + $200 to have the speed range markings added.

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/utd-true-airspeed.html

[xcrmckenna]

For some reason it won't let me see the link Bob.


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[carusoam]

Something got cut from his link...

Try this one...

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/utd-true-airspeed.html

Best regards,

-a-

[xcrmckenna]

My air speed indicator is in mph. Do I have to do anything regulation wise installing a new one in knots as long as all the speeds are converted.


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[carusoam]

Some people have posted the answer...

Expect that the ASI needs to match the POH data.

In one interesting case they used the POH data in mph, on the inner ring, and KIAS on the outer ring.

I believe Marauder posted a nicely updated repainted ASI before his panel evolved...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

My air speed indicator is in mph. Do I have to do anything regulation wise installing a new one in knots as long as all the speeds are converted.


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Like Anthony mentioned, the units from your POH need to match the ASI. My 1975 F has both MPH and knots listed. I was able to swap the positions of knots and MPH on the gauge. If your POH shows only MPH, you're stuck with those units.


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[xcrmckenna]

Like Anthony mentioned, the units from your POH need to match the ASI. My 1975 F has both MPH and knots listed. I was able to swap the positions of knots and MPH on the gauge. If your POH shows only MPH, you're stuck with those units.


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My ASI has knots and mph. But the mph is the outside ring. And I believe my poh has some speeds in mph and some in knots. Does that mean I can install a new true speed ASI with only knots or will it have to have both listed on it as well?


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[Marauder]

My ASI has knots and mph. But the mph is the outside ring. And I believe my poh has some speeds in mph and some in knots. Does that mean I can install a new true speed ASI with only knots or will it have to have both listed on it as well?

 

 

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As Anthony would say, I'm no AI (or IA).

 

I think as long as your POH shows both, including the CAS numbers in knots, it would be fine. As an example, my Aspen and ESI-500 are only showing knots. They are not capable of showing both. If my POH showed only MPH or knots, I think you are restricted to those units.

 

 

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[xcrmckenna]

Thanks guys.


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[xcrmckenna]

https://www.mcico.com/airspeed-indicators/8125-b-178-8125-b-178

I am guessing this one will cover me on both ends since it's a true speed ASI with knots and mph?


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[jetdriven]

Id ask them about how the range marks are applied. I bought a tach and the range marks they simply used green and yellow tape which started To peel off after a few weeks. It just looks ghetto. 

[xcrmckenna]

Id ask them about how the range marks are applied. I bought a tach and the range marks they simply used green and yellow tape which started To peel off after a few weeks. It just looks ghetto. 

Should they be painted, or are there grades of tape that other company's use?


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[gsxrpilot]

The colors should be painted or printed on the face under the glass. Whoever you're ordering from should want to see a copy of the page from your POH showing the relevant speeds. Ordering a Tach is a similar situation.

[carusoam]

I believe the words that describe the decoration of the display may be 'screen printed'... this is probably the expertise of an instrument overhaul shop.

The other thing to look for is that the KIAS are on the outer ring.  Large print in more space.

The particular lay-out of the mid continent instrument didn't mention the print process and the outer ring was in mph.

The Marauder example was very memorable in terms of large numbers, ease of use when needing to scan quickly...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

Here's a pic of my TAS ASI with knots and M.P.H. scales with knots as the primary.

Thread hijack: I have an ASI discrepancy that I've never been able to run to ground, probably asked and answered but if so I don't remember.

Background: Four different "Owners Manuals" for 65-67 Es and Cs all show stall speeds of 57 mph (33 flaps) and 67 mph clean. That's 50&58 kts. As you can see, my ASI is painted indicating VSo:55 kts and VS:61 kts, significantly lower than the OM. The ASI marking matches the AFM which it should. 

Questions:

1. Is the AFM based on flight testing the specific aircraft? (When I bought my 1st E in 1977 I do not recall having an AFM, only the OM, but I might be wrong about that. The AFM I have with my current '66E was created about 15 years ago by a previous owner with no trail indicating what prior documentation existed.)
2. I'd be interested in what other M20E owners have for VS & VSo. Do your AFM match your old OM?
3. You'll note that my old, now backup ASI reads about 3 kts higher than the Aspen primary. Is that "installation error" or something else?
4. At a PPP last fall flying with Lee Fox we did a lot of slow flight and stalls and while I was not staring at the ASI, I'm inclined to believe that 50 kts is closer to the truth but we were not at gross weight. 

I'll start a new thread if I don't get a good answers here. 

[Marauder]

Here's a pic of my TAS ASI with knots and M.P.H. scales with knots as the primary.
Thread hijack: I have an ASI discrepancy that I've never been able to run to ground, probably asked and answered but if so I don't remember.
Background: Four different "Owners Manuals" for 65-67 Es and Cs all show stall speeds of 57 mph (33 flaps) and 67 mph clean. That's 50&58 kts. As you can see, my ASI is painted indicating VSo:55 kts and VS:61 kts, significantly lower than the OM. The ASI marking matches the AFM which it should. 
Questions:

1. Is the AFM based on flight testing the specific aircraft? (When I bought my 1st E in 1977 I do not recall having an AFM, only the OM, but I might be wrong about that. The AFM I have with my current '66E was created about 15 years ago by a previous owner with no trail indicating what prior documentation existed.)
2. I'd be interested in what other M20E owners have for VS & VSo. Do your AFM match your old OM?
3. You'll note that my old, now backup ASI reads about 3 kts higher than the Aspen primary. Is that "installation error" or something else?
4. At a PPP last fall flying with Lee Fox we did a lot of slow flight and stalls and while I was not staring at the ASI, I'm inclined to believe that 50 kts is closer to the truth but we were not at gross weight. 

I'll start a new thread if I don't get a good answers here. 

Bob - are you sure the ASI in your plane is the correct one? Is it possible at some point the ASI was replaced with one that was incorrect for the plane?

I have been around a few 60s vintage Mooneys and can't recall ever seeing one with a TAS calculator built into the ASI. Could the discrepancy be due to this?


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[Marauder]

And to answer your first question. I believe the OM is based on a serial number break.


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[Bob_Belville]

17 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Bob - are you sure the ASI in your plane is the correct one? Is it possible at some point the ASI was replaced with one that was incorrect for the plane?

I have been around a few 60s vintage Mooneys and can't recall ever seeing one with a TAS calculator built into the ASI. Could the discrepancy be due to this?


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12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

And to answer your first question. I believe the OM is based on a serial number break.


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The ASI is obviously not original. But the indicated VS/VSo marking matches the AFM. Of course the AFM does not date to 1965. 

I have a OM appropriate for my ser.#, it, and 3 other OMs from that era all show 57 MPH VSo & 67 MPH VS. You are saying that the official VS/VSo is the same for all planes in a sequence and not unique based upon the certification flight check. This is reasonable though I think we know that the stall strips are initially temporarily attached until the test flight.

The Aspen was set up by Twin Lakes (or perhaps by Aspen) to match the AFM. 

[Bob_Belville]

Well my memory fails me again. I do have an original AFM. But it does not contain any reference to VS or VSo. The Figure 4 pic is from the OM.

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[Bob_Belville]

@Marauder my ASI is marked according to the AFM which defines the range of the white and green arcs. (As well as the yellow and red.)

http://www.flightlearnings.com/2010/07/19/airspeed-indicator-asi-markings/

• Lower limit of white arc (VS0)—the stalling speed or the minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration. In small aircraft, this is the power-off stall speed at the maximum landing weight in the landing configuration (gear and flaps down).
• Lower limit of green arc (VS1)—the stalling speed or the minimum steady flight speed obtained in a specified configuration. For most aircraft, this is the power-off stall speed at the maximum takeoff weight in the clean configuration (gear up, if retractable, and flaps up).

So I guess the table on page 39 of the OM is not intended to show the stall speeds but only to show the effect of bank angle on stall speeds. Very interesting. @donkaye???

[carusoam]

Bob,

Things that a PP (just one PP) might expect...

1) Stall warnings are personal to the plane. The buzzer is adjustable... stall fences(?) were once personalized per Mooney plane... (those little angular aluminum extrusions mounted to the leading edge)

3) Stall indications on the ASI are set by the AFM and later POH.

4) expect that all E AFMs and POHs will show the same stall speeds marked on the ASI. Some markings may have changed with some changes to the wings, tips, flush fasteners...  Serial numbers ranges should be called out to show the differences... The factory (Bill Wheat) told me to use the most recent POH or my 65C...

5) since AOA changes with weight and balance... There might be something to consider here.  Recovery from stall will be different.  (You covered this with ref. To DK)

6) Having two ASIs on the same Pitot and one gives a different answer, I would suspect something is worn or dirty in the mechanical mechanisms.

7) Markings are intended to be worst case scenarios...flaps up, gear up, max weight (inflight stall) / flaps down, gear down, max weight (landing stall shortly after T/O, no fuel burned)

8) LBs have an additional challenge as T/O weight and Landing weight are not the same.

9) It is interesting that the Pitot/Static test doesn't reveal something amiss.... what points get tested on the PS test?

10) expect some exceptions...

Again, PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[xcrmckenna]

So this is another dumb question. I'm going through my poh and I can't find the service ceiling for the 201. Google says its 18,000. But wanted to make sure I get the right altimeter as well. The ASI I'm getting has the markings painted onto the dial. I was wrong that my poh has the speeds listed in mph and knots on the indicator marking page. It's only in MPH. The stall speeds and cruise charts in the poh has mph and knots. So I would probably have to keep the ASI in mph at least.


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[Marauder]

Well my memory fails me again. I do have an original AFM. But it does not contain any reference to VS or VSo. The Figure 4 pic is from the OM.

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Bob - Vso is the bottom of the white arc and Vs is the bottom of the green arc. Based on the pictures you are showing, it looks like Vso is 63 MPH (54.7 KIAS) and Vs is 70 MPH (60.8 KIAS).


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