How High Without Oxygen?

[MBDiagMan]

I sm new to the world of climbing to altitude for an extended distance trip.

What altitude do you feel comfortable without oxygen?  We are in out mid sixties in good health and no need for CPAP.

Thanks in advance for your comments and advice?

[Brian Scranton]

Depends where you live. I know guys who live at sea level and they put O2 on above 6000! I live at 7000 feet and don't use O2 until above 15K. 

I also measure my O2 sats...once they are below 90, I add O2. 

[EricJ]

Get one of these (pulse oximeter), take it with you and use it frequently.   They're simple to use and give a measurement display pretty quickly.

https://www.amazon.com/Santamedical-Generation-SM-165-Fingertip-Saturation/dp/B00R59OTOC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497978930&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=pulse+oximeter&psc=1&smid=A8YXBQ7YB5YFQ

Everybody is different, so you need to find out your personal tolerance for it.   I take trips occasionally with a buddy that is about the same age as I am (50s), generally same level of health, mobility, etc.   I've never smoked in my life, and he was a serious smoker up to a few years ago.   On a recent trip cruising at 9500 without O2 he was still showing mid-90s-percent O2 saturation and I was getting down into the 80s...I did get a little bit light-headed.   Some people can stay up there with no trouble, others not so much.    Using a pulse oximeter is a good, objective way to know how you're doing.   Even if you feel okay, if the oximeter says otherwise it's best to go down a bit if you can.

[Skates97]

That's the same one I bought. I flew at 11,500' last week for a 3 hour leg and my levels were staying around 92-94. My son's would drop into the upper 80's but with deep breathing he could bring them back up into the 90's. As EricJ said, just get a pulse oximeter and monitor them to see what your body can handle.

[RLCarter]

I know you said "NO CRAP" but there are regulations that need to be followed. Hypoxia isn't something to mess with, 91.211 is the rule but it is possible to start getting the effects Hypoxia sooner. As been mentioned above, get a meter and monitor your O2 level, everyone handles altitude differently.

 

§91.211   Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

[DMJones]

4 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

I know you said "NO CRAP" but there are regulations that need to be followed. Hypoxia isn't something to mess with, 91.211 is the rule but it is possible to start getting the effects Hypoxia sooner. As been mentioned above, get a meter and monitor your O2 level, everyone handles altitude differently.

 

§91.211   Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

I don't think he meant no "BS".  I think he meant they don't use C-PAP.  Which as I understand it, is a machine to help people breathe at night, especially those with apnea...

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-apnea/continuous-positive-airway-pressure-cpap-for-obstructive-sleep-apnea

Or I could be wrong.

[RLCarter]

Just now, DMJones said:

I don't think he meant no "BS".  I think he meant they don't use C-PAP.  Which as I understand it, is a machine to help people breathe at night, especially those with apnea...

Or I could be wrong.

My mistake, lol.... I need a bigger screen on my phone or new glasses, or both

[Oscar Avalle]

It depends everybody is different and it also depends on how your body adapts that particular day to the altitude. I lived in La Paz Bolivia (12,000 feet high) for 3 years and I was Ok, but each time I traveled and went down I needed one to two days to get adapted to the altitude again.

 

I am now based in Washington DC. I use an oxymeter to monitor my O2 level, but regardless if my flight takes more than 1.5 hours and I plan on being above 8,000 feet I use oxygen. If at night I use it above 6,000.

 

If I don't use oxygen I feel exhausted at the end of the trip.

 

Oscar

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Raptor05121]

29 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

I know you said "NO CRAP" but there are regulations that need to be followed. Hypoxia isn't something to mess with, 91.211 is the rule but it is possible to start getting the effects Hypoxia sooner. As been mentioned above, get a meter and monitor your O2 level, everyone handles altitude differently.

 

§91.211   Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

 

Am I reading this right? I can climb to 14,000 MSL pressure altitude as long as I descend back down to 12.5 before the 30 minute timer expires?

[gsxrpilot]

When I flew a C, I was comfortable for extended trips at 12,500 or 13,500. I do use a pulse ox meter religiously. I've also done a lot of high altitude mountaineering and have never had any issues with altitude climbing up over 15,000.  But as mentioned, everyone is different. And fitness/health has surprising little to do with it. It seems to be more of a genetic thing.

With my 252, there's built in O2 and we use it more often. On the initial long trip in the 252 I was at FL210 and ran into a problem with the O2. I was in congested airspace and it took a while to get ATC to give me lower. I wasn't about to declare an emergency unless it became a problem. I was monitoring my O2 saturation and running mental math problems. ATC got me down to 15K without too much delay, and then 13K and then finally 11K.  I was pretty tired, but never had any symptoms of hypoxia. 

I now have a portable O2 bottle within arms reach when I'm cruising in the flight levels. And using the O2 regularly ensures it's working properly. But we still don't put it on unless we're going above 12,500 or 13,500.

[Nokomis449]

Just now, Raptor05121 said:

Am I reading this right? I can climb to 14,000 MSL pressure altitude as long as I descend back down to 12.5 before the 30 minute timer expires?

Yep, you can spend all day at 12,500, but only 30 minutes at a time between 12,501 and 14,000 without O2.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Oxygen is cheap.

Why debate the merits of flying at the edge of hypoxia when there are none?

 

[steingar]

47 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Oxygen is cheap.

Why debate the merits of flying at the edge of hypoxia when there are none?

 

What this guy said.  An oxygen bottle and canulae can be purchased inexpensively at most medical supply stores or online.  Everyone is indeed different, but folks in their 60s are not going to have the pulmonary or cardiovascular systems of folks in their 20s.  Moreover, even flights are legal altitudes can induce significant languor if of sufficient duration.  Indeed, if anyone is going outfly at night at high altitudes oxygen is highly recommended, most people will be seeing in black and white without it.

[Mooneymite]

The Navy made the distinction of day and night O2 requirements.  Though it's been a long time, I think the standard was O2 above 10K daytime, above 5K night time.  If you've ever watched all the lights brighten when you snort oxygen at night, you'll understand.

[carusoam]

Everybody is different.

Get your oximeter... and a fitbitHR

Take notes: graph your O2 vs altitude. (And time aloft)

As a young guy, I just followed the rules... 12,500' max.  M20C flights to family...

As a middle aged guy, I could sense the tiredness and the visual cues... at that level.

as an older guy, my fit bit counts off my heart rate and oximeter watches my O2...

Having an O2 system is good because you may want to fly at that level and still want to avoid the issues of low O2 saturation.

I am a big fan of extra glide distance.

PP thoughts only, not a physician or CFI... I can jog a mile under eight minutes.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by carusoam

[Jallen0]

The physics of this say that at sea level you will have 760 mm HG and at 10,000' you will be at 523 mm Hg. In practical terms this means that at 10,000' your Pao2 will still be adequate however even normal healthy adults will start feeling the effects of hypoxia, even if that is just a mild headache. What you don't want is to have hypoxic hypoxia...which starts happening above 10,000'. Especially if you have to do any rapid altitude changes up there.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

What this guy said.  An oxygen bottle and canulae can be purchased inexpensively at most medical supply stores or online.  Everyone is indeed different, but folks in their 60s are not going to have the pulmonary or cardiovascular systems of folks in their 20s.  Moreover, even flights are legal altitudes can induce significant languor if of sufficient duration.  Indeed, if anyone is going outfly at night at high altitudes oxygen is highly recommended, most people will be seeing in black and white without it.

I used to think I was getting low oxygen headaches after longish flights at 9500 msl. Then I got a set of Halos, and my headaches went away. I generally fly 10,000 msl or lower without supplemental oxygen. But it is very much an individual thing, you need to learn how your body reacts. Please be safe!

As for black and white night vision, it's a fact and not related to oxygen but to physiology. I made lens implants for nine years, and learned a few things about how eyes work in the process. Found a website with a very simple, easy to understand explanation:

Rods are responsible for vision at low light levels (scotopic vision). They do not mediate color vision, and have a low spatial acuity.

Cones are active at higher light levels (photopic vision), are capable of color vision and are responsible for high spatial acuity. The central fovea is populated exclusively by cones. 

Thus we see sharply, in color, when light is good, as the color vision cones are clustered pretty tightly in the center of your eye. Vision in low light conditions utilizes the rods, which do not react to color and do not provide sharp vision. Regardless of eye altitude or blood oxygen saturation levels. Color vision requires enough light to activate the cones; absent that, you see in B&W.

As soon as my magneto issues are put to rest, I'm gonna get myself night current again. Hope to fly to the beach after work again!

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks VERY much for all the great replies!  

Do I need an oximeter for each individual occupant or just one?

[DonMuncy]

Just now, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks VERY much for all the great replies!  

Do I need an oximeter for each individual occupant or just one?

They are cheap enough, you can have one for everyone. But you can pass one around as well. The pilot is the one it is critical for. 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks Don!  I was in a hurry to order two, but ended up only ordering one. I will get some more later.

Again, thanks to all of you for the great information.

[Yetti]

I would suggest each time you go up it is different.   We were in Creede Colorado 8800' with some friends parents.  The father had been moving slow for several days.  He had been to the camp several years in a row leading up to this trip. We thought it was because he had found out his friend had died back in Houston.  About day three I was looking at him and noticed his lips were blueish.  I asked the camp counselor if he had a Freedom of the Hills Book (The bible for climbing)   Yep it was an indicator.   Asked camp counselor if he had oxygen.   We put him on it and I offered to drive him down to Alamosa.    They got to Alamoso and the doctors at the Hospital gave him another tank of oxygen and said to keep driving to Texas.

So lessons learned is getting under 5K is supposed to fix things.   Not in this case. 

My theory is if you are involved in endurance sports your body is better at processing oxygen.  So you will probably do better at altitude.

Only have a business degree.

 

 

[milotron]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I now have a portable O2 bottle within arms reach when I'm cruising in the flight levels. And using the O2 regularly ensures it's working properly. But we still don't put it on unless we're going above 12,500 or 13,500.

Paul,  what do you use for your portable O2? That is on my list of items to acquire.

 

iain

[amillet]

I first bought a Sky Ox system.  When I decided to get a larger tank I purchased a Mountain High system.  I like it better.  Purchased an even larger tank also.

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, milotron said:

Paul,  what do you use for your portable O2? That is on my list of items to acquire.

 

iain

I just use the Boost Oxygen cans. I consider it emergency use only. But I figure if I'm at FL240 and have an O2 problem and loose the onboard oxygen, I can immediately use this to maintain faculties and set the altitude preselect for 10K or something to get the descent started.

The cans weigh nothing and I can have it sitting in my lap while cruising up high.

[DMJones]

10 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks Don!  I was in a hurry to order two, but ended up only ordering one. I will get some more later.

Again, thanks to all of you for the great information.

In the FWIW department, those oxymeters are about half price if you get them from a store that doesn't have "airplane" or "aircraft" in the store name!  Check Amazon, if you haven't already.