New plane, noob mistakes, buying experience with Skywagons L.L.C.

[Bob_Belville]

37 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

... I should have taken it to a mooney service center for pre-buy.  I should have done even more research before buying.  Maybe you guys are right, they didn't know about any of the issues and said "Everything works great" and I was a dumb ass.      

"Truth" is seldom found at the extremes. In a perfect world I suppose you should have done some things differently and so should the seller. Don't beat yourself up over it. Going forward, and that's the only direction that time goes, there's a real benefit to what you've gone through finding and repairing discrepancies. Tuition is expensive no matter what kind of "school" you attend.

The PPI I had done on my purchase of an E model 5+ years ago was limited to a few hours on a Sunday afternoon, cost me $220 plus gas one way to my A&Ps shop, and was concentrated on corrosion and engine health. (The plane has bladders so the 3rd potentially expensive gotcha was not an issue.) I took note of a number of smaller issues and offered the seller 10% below his ask. The seller had passed my character PPI and he accepted my offer. I spent a few AMUs in the first few months on stuff that never grounded the plane for more than a few days. These are 50 year old machines and we cannot expect them to not need a fair amount of maintenance. You, like me, may shortly buy a battery, alternator/VR, muffler, vacuum pump, brake pads/disks... and you'll no doubt repair or upgrade several of the ancient components in your panel. )

[gsxrpilot]

Buyers of Mooneys should always use a reputable MSC for a pre-buy. An MSC should know what to look for on a Mooney. Whereas a good A&P, but one who doesn't do a lot of Mooney work, won't be familiar with the little quirks and issues that Mooneys are plagued with. I would never recommend anyone buy a Mooney without an MSC pre-buy. So when a buyer chooses to bypass the MSC pre-buy, the buyer is certainly taking a risk. And it's on the buyer to accept that risk. 

In this case, the buyer is trusting the broker/seller to answer his questions truthfully. Personally I wouldn't trust such person to tell me the truth. But that doesn't mean I'd excuse it either. So when questions aren't answered truthfully by a broker or seller or mechanic or shop or anyone, it's very useful information and information I'm happy @Grandmas Flying Couch was willing to share with us.

We can say, and I'll agree that it was foolish to trust the broker and a better pre-buy should have been done. But that is a completely different issue than the blatant misrepresentation of an airplane like this person did, they should be named and the rest of us are happy to be warned.

[PTK]

54 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Buyers of Mooneys should always use a reputable MSC for a pre-buy. An MSC should know what to look for on a Mooney. Whereas a good A&P, but one who doesn't do a lot of Mooney work, won't be familiar with the little quirks and issues that Mooneys are plagued with. I would never recommend anyone buy a Mooney without an MSC pre-buy. So when a buyer chooses to bypass the MSC pre-buy, the buyer is certainly taking a risk. And it's on the buyer to accept that risk. 

In this case, the buyer is trusting the broker/seller to answer his questions truthfully. Personally I wouldn't trust such person to tell me the truth. But that doesn't mean I'd excuse it either. So when questions aren't answered truthfully by a broker or seller or mechanic or shop or anyone, it's very useful information and information I'm happy @Grandmas Flying Couch was willing to share with us.

We can say, and I'll agree that it was foolish to trust the broker and a better pre-buy should have been done. But that is a completely different issue than the blatant misrepresentation of an airplane like this person did, they should be named and the rest of us are happy to be warned.

I don't think that's fair. I don't think it rises to blatant misrepresentation.

The buyer had a ppi and annual that he paid for. It is his responsibility, since he is paying for it, to hire the most knowledgeable and experienced.

The seller offered 100% refund of deposit if buyer didn't want the airplane aftef the ppi.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Sounds to me as if your initial steps have gone about like those most of us took when we bought our first plane.  

We didn't know everything about buying an old Mooney, either.  You're doing fine.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[steingar]

Personally, I think the mechanic who does the pretty hosed also be the one who performs the annual inspection on the airplane.  Reduces surprises.

[Yetti]

We'd like to trust people and then have issues when that trust is not as we thought.   I trusted a MSC to fix up my landing gear actuator.   They could not get the job done properly.   I would have been much better off just doing it myself.  I have spent 2 years developing the trust of and me trusting the IA I use.  We trust people to get these things back together.  Then we take them up to way above the earth surface.   As owners we are responsible for the work that work others do on the plane.  It's all about trust.

[MB65E]

On 6/22/2017 at 8:00 PM, Yetti said:

Fuel selector.  Not hard.  There is an SB that changes the Torque value to lower so you don't break it.   Call LASER and order the oring set.  They will know what you need.  There is a fancy Oring with washer for the bottom bolt. Call these people and ask for the thick one of these.   http://www.brownaircraft.com/product-p/gl-30-hd.htm

Might as well get spares while you are getting.

There is a finger strainer on the fuel solenoid that can be accessed from either side.  I pull the fuel line side.

How are your hoses?   Call PHT hoses in Oklahoma and get the upgraded brown ones with integrated fire sleeves.... since you are taking things apart

Order a stainless screw set from Spruce.  Order some nylon washer for the #10 screws

Check these guys https://www.bandbaircraftsupplies.com/bb-online-store

Cleaning the fuel screens is called for in the 100 hour/Annual inspection.

 

Is it not the Thin 1/16" gasket? The folks at Brown are great. Placed my order last fall and asked for the special request. Their response was " guess you have a mooney." They know the deal. 

Thanks for the reminder about B&B I always raid their stuff at Oshkosh, but haven't ordered anything. 

Cheers,

-Matt

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I would never recommend anyone buy a Mooney without an MSC pre-buy.

I disagree. If you choose to do a pre-buy, an MSC is not necessarily required. My A&P/IA personally flies a Mooney Rocket but the shop is not an MSC. As a matter of fact, I refuse to use the closest MSC, too many bad stories about them. My local non-MSC guy is far better.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

I disagree. If you choose to do a pre-buy, an MSC is not necessarily required. My A&P/IA personally flies a Mooney Rocket but the shop is not an MSC. As a matter of fact, I refuse to use the closest MSC, too many bad stories about them. My local non-MSC guy is far better.

If you Won't give him a plug I will.

go see Troy at Tucson Air Center KAVQ

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I disagree. If you choose to do a pre-buy, an MSC is not necessarily required. My A&P/IA personally flies a Mooney Rocket but the shop is not an MSC. As a matter of fact, I refuse to use the closest MSC, too many bad stories about them. My local non-MSC guy is far better.

I won't disagree with you. But my point is still valid that you want a pre-buy from someone who knows Mooneys. I've met and spoken with A&P's who claim to know Mooneys but really know them just as another light single engine piston. There are plenty of stories on this forum, (I've got a list) of buyers who took their Mooney to the "local guy who really knows his stuff", for the prebuy. And then all kinds of Mooney specific stuff was missed. Take Don Maxwell on the other hand, I'm pretty sure he can watch you land and taxi up and have enough information to fill out the paperwork. He knows exactly what to look for and which models are susceptible to what maladies and where to check.

Of course after you've bought a few Mooneys, you might get away with having pretty much any A&P do the pre-buy as long as you're there to make sure they check the stuff that should be checked.

[chrixxer]

On June 19, 2017 at 6:10 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I've been keeping a list of Mooney purchases that didn't go as well as they should have. Your example has been added to the list.

Kinda wondering if I'm on that list

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

Kinda wondering if I'm on that list

Nope, you're not. 

I actually think you did pretty well. The plane seems like it needs a few things, but you paid appropriately considering.

[chrixxer]

20 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Nope, you're not. 

I actually think you did pretty well. The plane seems like it needs a few things, but you paid appropriately considering.

I was gonna say, it probably went a lot better than it "should have."  Even the avionics - which I knew were junk - got me back to SoCal, where I could piece together an actually pretty great "interim" /U setup, at my leisure. With the considerable help of a couple of MS Mooniacs!

[carusoam]

So... (generally)

1) you bought a 50 year old machine...

2) from a dealer that has no specific experience for this machine...

3) had a PPI done by a non-machine specific Mechanic...

4) Your machine flies safely at altitude at full speed...

5) which is about 75% of the speed of a brand new one, at 1/10th cost...

6) Are you celebrating?

7) Are you dissapointed?

8) Did you get more than you paid for?

9) did you get less than you paid for?

10) you do know fixing an old plane is similar to fixing a new plane, in price. 

11) if you skipped all the advice of going to the known dealers and the known maintenance resources..

you can choose:

• you can celebrate the money you saved
• be dissapointed by the following expenses you received

12) Are We responsible for are own destiny?

13) Don't change a thing... it comes from your own experience. You weren't the first, you won't be the last. But, maybe, your honest experience just helped somebody do it better for themselves....

14) You probably just want to move on to the next adventure. Focusing on every misstep you have probably doesn't get you to the next level where you want to be...

15) I've been there... I bought the most worn, aged M20C.  If i didn't buy it, the O wouldn't have happened a decade later.

16) update your location in your avatar... if you hide behind a vail of secrecy, it is hard to get all people to be supportive of your situation.

17) Some steps in life are going to be tough.  This isn't one of them...

Hows that for a pep talk?

Best regards,

-a-

[SheryLoewen]

An airplane advertised for sale is expected to be airworthy. and the seller should be responsible for anything that is an airworthiness  item. A good prebuy inspection by a Mooney shop is important. LASAR uses a Prebuy list and it usually cost about $1700

 

[carusoam]

^^^ There isn't a better resource for this topic... ^^^

 

Thanks for sharing the details, Shery!

Always pleasant to here from you.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Well, most issues are resolved and the plane has been returned to service by the mechanic.  Took a lesson today, 2.2 hours and the only lingering issue was an intermittent gear up light.  Fun times!  The frustration was fading quick when we climbed out of the heat to 5500' and then 7000'   Thanks for all the advice, I'm putting the purchase behind me now, and in the future if I go through the buying process I'm more educated and better know what to expect.

As a side note, I was cleaning the air box and the oil from the bracket air filter is a bear to clean off ( I cleaned it off the plane not the filter, hold the comments about me being retarded)!  Also if you look at the pictures of the plane it has a kind of air scoop attached that comes off with the filter, it's not factory.  Thoughts? This plane used to have a Ray-Jay, but has been returned to factory, except the ram-air stayed deleted ;(  the book said it increase the speed by mach 2.27.  Should I keep the little scoop on there, do you think it helps with positive air pressure to intake kind of like C-models, or do you think the extra drag would remove any gain?

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch

[Yetti]

I have s similar scoop like that on my oil filter.  Silicone spray is good for cleaning that silicone oil off the Bracket filter

[Hank]

Wow! Never noticed an injected engine with what looks like a carbureter chin . . . . The bump on my C isn't for air intake, it's to clear the carb on the bottom of the engine, and to clear the carb heat box.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Thanks Yetti, what spray do you recommend? I tried simple green but it does not break down that stuff.  Thanks for clarifying, Hank, I haven't seen a C in person yet.  Just an E and my F.   

[Andy95W]

Yetti's Silicone spray is available at most hardware stores and is also used to lubricate brake caliper pins and your starter Bendix. You can also use regular old mineral spirits to clean up the Brackett gunk.

Congrats on your plane.

[Browncbr1]

What kind of MAP do you get with that air filter scoop?  At takeoff and at 10K...WOT 

[Yetti]

This stuff cleans the best.   I used it to clean the whole engine compartment.  Found at all the big box stores.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

On 7/12/2017 at 6:14 AM, Yetti said:

This stuff cleans the best.   I used it to clean the whole engine compartment.  Found at all the big box stores.

I know you posted this a long time ago, but I need to tell you, this stuff has changed my life!  What used to take 45 min with simple green aviation and rags, now if spray and wipe with blue shop towel.  That easy!  I have been using it alot without the fear of corrosion (like you have with simple green avaition, you have to make sure its all gone).  I bought this exact brand and flavor, they updated the can.  Thanks again!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I know you posted this a long time ago, but I need to tell you, this stuff has changed my life!  What used to take 45 min with simple green aviation and rags, now if spray and wipe with blue shop towel.  That easy!  I have been using it alot without the fear of corrosion (like you have with simple green avaition, you have to make sure its all gone).  I bought this exact brand and flavor, they updated the can.  Thanks again!

I hope you’re wearing some protective gear.