Garwin Cluster

[RLCarter]

 I want to start out by saying I have no desire in spending the money on a JPI or any others that are out there. I am perfectly happy reading analog gauges. My Garwin gauges are getting sketchy especially both fuel quantities, I visually inspect “stick the tanks” on preflight and fly based on time, but it would be nice to know if I developed a fuel leak on a tank in flight. I’m leaning towards what Sabremech did but would like to install them back where the originals were but I’m not sure if the will fit. What appeals to me about the Mitchell Cluster is for around a grand I get 6 new gauges and 6 new sending units. On the other hand I can send my Garwin cluster out and have it gone through for the same money and it’s a plug-n-play (minimal labor), as mentioned above its my fuel quantities that I am out to correct so if the Garwin went out for repair I would sent the fuel sending out for repair or just replace them which adds to the amount. Before I start sending stuff out and/or ordering in new I would like to hear from anyone that has done the same (repair or replace). I spoke with Mitchell and they say their fuel sending units will work with the Garwin gauges, from what I’ve researched here and on the net the original AC Delco fuel sending units are 350ish compared to the Mitchell’s at just over 100 bucks. I’ve also heard that out of the 2 places in Lock Haven, Keystone is the place to use, so I would also like to hear about repair facility experiences as most the thread on here are fairly old, how well has your repairs held up?

[takair]

I found some newer used fuel quantity senders from salvage and it made a night and day difference.  There were some minor adjustments made to the Garwin to get them smoother.  They are not perfect, but quite reliable now.  Would I like newer stuff? Yes, but I also like the challenge of making the old stuff work like it was supposed to.  It is possible, just takes patience.  Not familiar with Keystone, but have heard Lock Haven can make it work.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Have fun with your rufurbed from sketchy 50+ year old analog gauges.  Since you want no input on why they are not as reliable, safe, accurate, functional as any of the numerous modern gauges I have no input for you.

If there was a CB weekly award I would nominate you sir.  Congratulations and a hearty salute.

[RLCarter]

6 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Have fun with your rufurbed from sketchy 50+ year old analog gauges.  Since you want no input on why they are not as reliable, safe, accurate, functional as any of the numerous modern gauges I have no input for you.

If there was a CB weekly award I would nominate you sir.  Congratulations and a hearty salute.

Damn, who pissed you off? I know the advantages of the digital options but what I don't know is why you would basically slam someone you know nothing about. You said you had no input, if that was true you would have just moved along, but you didn't, you just had to say something even though it was of no help to me, then you top it off by calling me a Cheap Bastard.... Unbelievable 

[MyNameIsNobody]

To me it is a complement.  Made me read his.  Quid pro quo.  I bought my first engine monitor for .3 AMU's.  There is CB and there is silly.

[MyNameIsNobody]

You will know if I am "pissed off".

[MyNameIsNobody]

 Ignorance is bliss.

[Marauder]

Being kicked out of the Cheap Bast$%d Club is not fun. You get ridiculed, fingers pointed at and avionic shops think they can throw AMU bills your way. It's no way to live a life.

[RLCarter]

Jim, 

Keeping things original has a certain appeal as does a "loaded panel". I have no problem spending money on the "E", but doing upgrades on a aircraft that I will probably sell in a year or so makes no sense, to me anyway. I don't plan on starting this project for another 2 weeks or so. I might head to the hangar and remove the Garwin so I can measure the opening and see if there is space for the Mitchell cluster

[MyNameIsNobody]

3 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Jim, 

Keeping things original has a certain appeal as does a "loaded panel". I have no problem spending money on the "E", but doing upgrades on a aircraft that I will probably sell in a year or so makes no sense, to me anyway. I don't plan on starting this project for another 2 weeks or so. I might head to the hangar and remove the Garwin so I can measure the opening and see if there is space for the Mitchell cluster

As Paul Harvey used to say: "and now for the rest of the story".  Totally agree that putting a lot of money into a panel that you plan to part with in a year is silly.  Adding that after second sentence in the first post would have made me move on without comment.  Being a CB NOW makes sense to this CB.  Carry on...

[Sabremech]

9 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Jim, 

Keeping things original has a certain appeal as does a "loaded panel". I have no problem spending money on the "E", but doing upgrades on a aircraft that I will probably sell in a year or so makes no sense, to me anyway. I don't plan on starting this project for another 2 weeks or so. I might head to the hangar and remove the Garwin so I can measure the opening and see if there is space for the Mitchell cluster

Hi RL,

The Mitchell may fit in the original location with a little work. I moved my cluster instruments because I was adding an Insight G2 engine monitor and I wanted the engine instruments where I didn't need to strain to see them. I also angled my panel 30 degrees where the engine instruments are all lined up and now they're aimed toward me for quick easy viewing. 

Thanks,

David

[RLCarter]

Update,:

according to what I could find on Mitchell's website and then measuring the original cut out in the panel for the Garwin cluster it looks like the open will need to be widened 0.080". I contact Mitchell by email but never got a reply so I contacted them by phone which wasn't much better. On June 28th I ordered LH & RH Fuel, Amp, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp and CHT gauges along with sending units and probes for the 6 gauges and at the time I gave Aircraft Spruce the Yellow, Green and Red arc for the 2 Temp & 1 Pressure gauge. Two weeks later I contacted Mitchell as Spruce had the whole order drop shipped to check the status, was told nothing had been done or will be done until after Oshkosh.....what a PITA. Mitchell contacted me on August 2nd and said they were working on the 3 custom faces and should go out shortly.....they shipped 7 days later. My annual runs out at the end of August so I have elected to start the annual early and do the gauges at the same time.... Will post some pictures of the new cluster when they come in and during installation. Not much of an "Update" but it's all I have

[Andy95W]

RL- please continue to provide updates and pictures as you install the Mitchell gauges. I like David's installation, but changing the gauge location really isn't in the cards for me.  I would love to see how it all fits in the original location.

[RLCarter]

11 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

RL- please continue to provide updates and pictures as you install the Mitchell gauges. I like David's installation, but changing the gauge location really isn't in the cards for me.  I would love to see how it all fits in the original location.

Will do, planning on going out after lunch today and start the removal, naturally I have 40+ gal. of fuel to remove. 

[RLCarter]

Let the games begin

 

[Sabremech]

One item I learned on my installation is to put a ground wire on the outside of the oil pressure sending unit to the engine. When I first did mine, I had zero oil pressure indicated until applying the ground. 

The main reason I didn't put this cluster in the original location was that I wanted my new Insight G2 engine monitor closer to me for monitoring. I felt that data was much more relevant to be scanned regularly over the information on the cluster.

David

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, Sabremech said:

One item I learned on my installation is to put a ground wire on the outside of the oil pressure sending unit to the engine. When I first did mine, I had zero oil pressure indicated until applying the ground. 

Mitchell mentions a ground as well, I assume it's due to the sending unit being remotely mounted vs directly to the engine

[RLCarter]

Slight issue when test fitting the new modular frame, the mounting flanges on the sides(left photo) wont allow the the frame to fit flat against the back of the panel, it seems if I remove the flange from the end cap (right photo) it will go into place. Will get with my IA after lunch and see how feels about it. I would much rather modify the new frame than the old airplane so that way if need be a Garwin cluster would go right back in

[carusoam]

Getting closer with every step...

Still won't get any easier until the last step is in place.   

Its going to be nice having useful working gauges!

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

17 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Getting closer with every step...

Still won't get any easier until the last step is in place.   

Its going to be nice having useful working gauges!

Best regards,

-a-

Left Fuel gauge looked like a windshield wiper, the RH Fuel showed FULL no mater what, nice and required to have but I still use time for fuel

[N6758N]

Curious as to how much money you have invested in this? I can appreciate you not wanting to spend tons of money on new stuff and have to change the panel. etc... However given the amount of time invested to retrofit the mitchell gauges, etc... I wonder how close you are coming to a basic JPI system. Did you consider the new Cies fuel senders? I doubt they cost much more than the Mitchell ones and I believe they will work will the old style gauges as well. Please don't take this as a criticism, more just curious as to how much time/money you have invested to keep the original look going.  

[gsxrpilot]

14 hours ago, Sabremech said:

The main reason I didn't put this cluster in the original location was that I wanted my new Insight G2 engine monitor closer to me for monitoring. I felt that data was much more relevant to be scanned regularly over the information on the cluster.

+1 on the G2. I don't know why anyone would spend money on an EDM-700 or UGB-16 when the G2 is available. In fact, unless you're going EDM-900 or better, the G2 is what you want.

[neilpilot]

My reaction is a bit different.  We have a 65C, and if the OEM Garwin panel is the same as the RLC's 65E then each of the 6 gauges are easily removed from the cluster from the front.  Note that this is very different from the Garwin in my former 64E, where the individual gauges did NOT each have a front screw to permit removal.

After purchase, we found both of our fuel gauges worked in a similar fashion to RLC's, i.e. totally unreliable.  We paid $350 to have AirParts of Lock Haven PA O/H both senders.  Based on our troubleshooting, 1 of the 2 gauges was faulty.  They could have O/H the one faulty gauge we had for $240 (they charge $75 to test the gauge), but we bought a set of surplus gauges for $50 IIRC.  So after spending $400, not including our troubleshooting time, we had both fuel indicators working well, and they have been for the past 4 years.

[MyNameIsNobody]

T minus nine months to sale.  You might have it installed in time to recover your investment for next owner.  Good one.

[RLCarter]

@N6758N total cost for the Mitchel gauges/frame/senders and probes was $950.ish vs $3900.00 for a JPI that is primary for fuel qty. I tried to contact Cies about their sending units on 3 separate occasions and have yet to hear back from them, so I couldn't tell you if their sending units would work with analog gauges or not. As far as install time goes I'm not sure, but it will less than a JPI

@gsxrpilot I looked at the G2 even though I have a EDM-700 setting in the hangar, the problem is for the past 50+ years the panel has had things added with very little rhyme or reason, it would take fabricating new panels (LH & RH) to get things right, I just don't feel like spending the effort on this plane when I might not keep it.

@neilpilot  my Garwin cluster does not have the individual gauges, I looked at getting the Garwin repaired. If had sent it in I would of had all 6 gauges rebuilt and replaced both fuel sending units at a minimum which would have been just north of $1250.00