Buying an aircraft from Canada

[dgrami]

For those who have bought an aircraft from Canada, what were your experiences?  With the exchange rate being what it is, I thought it might be something to consider.  Not sure what the complete process is or the costs involved, I was thinking it might not be all that different than buying an airplane here in the States.  There would be a pre-purchase inspection (would need to find a reputable Mooney Service Center in Canada I suspect), transfer of funds, relocating the aircraft here which i suspect is just a border crossing, and then registering a Canadian aircraft which I suspect may be more involved.  This is where AOPA can help.  Then again, maybe this isn't such a good idea...... 

[Cyril Gibb]

There's 50-60 planes imported and exported every month from Canada.  Clarence (eastern Canada MSC) handles these frequently.

[carusoam]

To find Clarence, go to @M20Doc

The further away from home the plane is, adds to the challenges incrementally.

If you are buying a top end, expensive, hard to find plane, it could be worthwhile...

If you found a really low cost, entry model plane, the travel costs to just go see it will be expensive.  The thought of repainting the tail number can be out of the budget...

A high end, expensive plane, with exquisite logs, and with an extremely favorable exchange rate could be beneficial..?

If the benefit is solely exchange rate, the thought of buying a plane that far away has too many risks involved.  Minimizing risk is key when buying expensive things far away...

It can be done. A lot depends on what you are trying to do, and why you want to do it...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 22, 2017 by carusoam

[RobertGary1]

There is a specific inspection required to register it for an N number. Basically its like a super annual in which you ensure all the US required AD's etc have been done. Also you'll have to ensure any mods have US equivalent approvals. You may need to purchase STC's etc for existing mods.

This has to be done by an FAA IA which is good anyway since it will need an FAA annual at the same time.

 

-Robert

Edited May 22, 2017 by RobertGary1

[TonyK]

Have you read the article on the AOPA site?  I found it when I was doing some research into the subject.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-ownership/business-justification/importing-and-exporting-aircraft

[Cyril Gibb]

35 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

There is a specific inspection required to register it for an N number. Basically its like a super annual in which you ensure all the US required AD's etc have been done. Also you'll have to ensure any mods have US equivalent approvals. You may need to purchase STC's etc for existing mods.

 

-Robert

Very very very unlikely that ADs or STCs would be a problem.  Canada/US reciprocal agreements cover that.  With the US being country of manufacture, any ADs are also applicable in Canada.  STCs the same.  If it's a US STC (essentially all for Mooneys), it's mandatory in Canada.

Canada has a few more stringent requirements such as the mandatory overhaul of CS props every 10 years and the logging requirements. eg. the journey log which must include crew, times, routes and maintenance records (in addition to airframe/prop/engine logs).

[Mark89114]

I recently (2 years) bought my plane from a gentleman in Canada.

You don't want to purchase the plane in Canada and transfer ownership.  My understanding is when it is sold they are required to turn in paperwork (registration, airwortiness(maybe)) right away.  Now you have an airplane with no proper paperwork.  Then you would have to get it inspected by an FAA IA and then signed off by an FAA DER in Canada, which would only add to your costs.  Those inspection costs and DER paperwork still need to be done, but now you have to figure out how to do them in Canada which will only add to your expense.  We arranged for the owner to fly it to 'merica where I had a Mooney MSC do a prebuy.  If I would have backed out, I was liable for transportation expenses in a general sense.  There were some other tricky things which I have since forgotten.  It was not a huge ordeal, but as someone mentioned if this is a $20K plane costs would be % higher versus a $200K plane.  We did the escrow with some company in OK City to protect both of us.  When/If you have the owner fly to America with the plane don't tell CBP it is being sold, just adds another layer of complication.  You aren't lying as the airplane technically hasn't been sold, you are just inspecting it for the legal beagles among the group.           

[RobertGary1]

35 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Very very very unlikely that ADs or STCs would be a problem.  Canada/US reciprocal agreements cover that.  With the US being country of manufacture, any ADs are also applicable in Canada.  STCs the same.  If it's a US STC (essentially all for Mooneys), it's mandatory in Canada.

Canada has a few more stringent requirements such as the mandatory overhaul of CS props every 10 years and the logging requirements. eg. the journey log which must include crew, times, routes and maintenance records (in addition to airframe/prop/engine logs).

I seem to recall at least one owner complain that mods had been done with Canadian approval and he had to seek out a method of approval for the work that existed in the US. 

I can also imagine any field approvals getting complex.

-Robert

[Cyril Gibb]

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I seem to recall at least one owner complain that mods had been done with Canadian approval and he had to seek out a method of approval for the work that existed in the US. 

I can also imagine any field approvals getting complex.

-Robert

That info would be informative if you have it handy.  Someone of a higher payscale than I could comment, but I think that (again) Canadian and US requirements for documenting and getting engineering approval for mods/repairs to a certified aircraft are pretty well in lockstep between our two countries.

[capthaak]

I recently (2 years) bought my plane from a gentleman in Canada.
You don't want to purchase the plane in Canada and transfer ownership.  My understanding is when it is sold they are required to turn in paperwork (registration, airwortiness(maybe)) right away.  Now you have an airplane with no proper paperwork.  Then you would have to get it inspected by an FAA IA and then signed off by an FAA DER in Canada, which would only add to your costs.  Those inspection costs and DER paperwork still need to be done, but now you have to figure out how to do them in Canada which will only add to your expense.  We arranged for the owner to fly it to 'merica where I had a Mooney MSC do a prebuy.  If I would have backed out, I was liable for transportation expenses in a general sense.  There were some other tricky things which I have since forgotten.  It was not a huge ordeal, but as someone mentioned if this is a $20K plane costs would be % higher versus a $200K plane.  We did the escrow with some company in OK City to protect both of us.  When/If you have the owner fly to America with the plane don't tell CBP it is being sold, just adds another layer of complication.  You aren't lying as the airplane technically hasn't been sold, you are just inspecting it for the legal beagles among the group.           

I've also heard of paperwork nightmares or no documentation issues with Canadian aircraft, so make double sure the logbook is intact and stays that way.


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[dgrami]

This aircraft is located around Montreal.  I am not sure of the total time, but has significant upgrades that make it an interesting find.  For what one is getting for the US dollar, it may be worth the headache, risks and expense to pursue.  

http://www.planeboard.com/mooney/m20c/psRd2F16 

 

 

[RobertGary1]

23 minutes ago, dgrami said:

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by RobertGary1

[gsxrpilot]

Paint, panel and interior look nice. No speed mods means it will be a slower C. I think it's priced just on the high side, but certainly a good candidate for someone looking for a C.

[Cyril Gibb]

1 hour ago, dgrami said:

This aircraft is located around Montreal.  I am not sure of the total time, but has significant upgrades that make it an interesting find.  For what one is getting for the US dollar, it may be worth the headache, risks and expense to pursue.  

http://www.planeboard.com/mooney/m20c/psRd2F16 

 

 

The ad says 3200 hours total.  Looks nice paint and interior, but only about 55 hours total over the last 6 years isn't a good sign.  If that's an ELT on the left side behind the back seats, I think it's installed incorrectly.  If so, I'd be concerned about who was maintaining and what else less obvious is there. 

[Guest]

Import/ export can be a costly adventure, we have done lots of them over the years.  We can export them as a U.S. Airplane before they leave Canada.  This is more costly as an FAA IA and DAR are required. ($2000) typically

A PPI carried out at a shop of your choice within a reasonable distant and with you paying the relocation expenses is the first step.

Review of log books, Canadian aircraft are just as prone to having missing logs as any other.  In many cases the original US logs may be missing.

In Canada we have to comply AD's issued by the country of manufacture as well as those issued in Canada, not so in the U.S.  

We don't really have a field approval system so most Mod's would be through an STC, the bilateral agreement covers these.

Removing registration marks if painted on represents a big expenses, so I suggest vinyl at repaint.

Not coming clean with CBP can lead to seizure of the plane, this screws the seller as the funds are in escrow and the plane is seized.  Then who will pay to release it?  Don't go there.  Hire a customs broker to handle the paperwork, it's money well spent.  

Once the agreement to purchase is completed and the funds are in escrow you can have the plane delivered as a Canadian plane and have the C of R cancelled upon safe delivery to you.

Happy to speak with you in detail if needed.

Clarence

 

[M20F]

Canadian planes are often claimed to be faster but that is just because the ASI is in KM/H.  Watch out for this clever sales trick. 

[dgrami]

Thanks for all the feedback.  Think I will pass on this aircraft.  Everybody's input and comments are very much appreciated.  

[flyntgr1]

Don't forget that depending on what part of Canada the sircraft is based, the Logs could be written in French.

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, flyntgr1 said:

Don't forget that depending on what part of Canada the sircraft is based, the Logs could be written in French.

Sacré bleu!

[drapo]

I've bought both of my airplanes in the US and brought them back to Canada, and although the process is more complicated than it should, it is feasible if you deal with competent people.

Listen to what Clarence is saying, don't take shortcuts, you might have to pay for it along the road...

BTW, $64k CDN is around $45k US these days...