Bendix/King --- Are you kidding???

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Hyett6420 said:

You buying? . 

I have my own panel to worry about.

[gsengle]

So anyone have the KI300 scoop?


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[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

This was really useful, BUT the devil is in the detail as always.  Yes the KFC etc autopilot unit was NOT on the list BUT the 525 and 256 are, so my AI and HSI which are critical to my ap function and being mechanical will have a mtbf.  

Unless i read it wrong of course.  Its beena tough week.

Andrew

No, looks like you read it right.  The KI525 and KI256 are technically part of the KFC-150, and there is certainly an unwelcome exposure there with them on the "naughty" list.

[StevenL757]

3 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

3 hours ago, gsengle said:

Any sign of that in the works? How does the Garmin AP compare to a well operating say KFC150?

 

 

It doesn't.  Although the KFC-150 is a wonderfully-performing AP, the GFC-700 is far superior.  Especially with the VNAV option (ver. 3 upgrade) in the GDU1044 display.

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, Godfather said:

If they jump in the an AP for the G5 it still won't work for my aircraft. Can't be used for primary because I have a flight director, can't be used as a backup as it is not certified for that...don't want to think about all the legal reasons Garmin will make up to keep a reasonable cost AP out of my plane.

I'd really like to see an AP option from Garmin but I have a feeling it will be a 60amu g500/700 adventure. 

They will charge whatever they think the market will bear.  As they have the technology available in the G3X with autopilot for as little as 7.5k (now that is the system I really want!) I bet they could make a certified g500 based system for something like 20k (not incl the g500) - or rather that is the pricepoint they will decide that the market can bear for a high end autopilot. They must be talking about this now.  They would sell a lot of autopilots.

...what if something could be certified to be driven with by the g5?...?

Edited May 11, 2017 by aviatoreb

[mooneyflyfast]

On 5/11/2017 at 9:37 AM, gsengle said:

 

Has anyone else heard what I've been told by an avionics guy - that the KI300 product has been killed?


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King salesman at S&F claimed it was still in the works. I might have bought one 2 years ago. 

[jlunseth]

I have the KFC200 so I hope this is headed in the right direction.  Having the factory repair or replace components (i.e. the 256 and 525) is alot different than repairing the AP itself, which is installed in the backbone of the aircraft, so the whole aircraft would need to go in.  But the actual notice from BK appears to consider that, good for them.

I think we need to bear in mind that BK has been a pretty good citizen of GA to date.  They have allowed shops like AP Central and there has been a healthy market for rebuilt components.  On top of that, many of these systems are 30 years old or more, and were designed in a completely different era when there was no GPS.  The fact that ways have been figured out to make them work with GPS is, to me, remarkable, whether BK did that or not.  

I have mixed views about Garmin as a GA citizen.  Their developments in GPS have been remarkable, but they are very pricey, there have been bugs, and their service system does not always work well.  I had a 430 AW installed in 2009, the "A" is for the $3,500 extra I paid for to have a 16 W transmitter because I fly in the Flight Levels and long trips over the midwest where distances to the nearest transmitter are lengthy.  The thing has not been worth the money since I bought it.  Both transmission and reception have been mediocre at distance, or around Tstorms.  I generally revert to my second comm, a beat up old King, when I lose contact on the 430.  Its a much better radio.  I have tried to get the problem solved several times, have had replacement units installed, and through my local shop we sent the unit in to Garmin at one point.  The report was that it was out of spec, they returned it to spec on the bench at Garmin, but it did not make much difference.  So why did I spend that $3,500 in the first place.  I was at the Garmin factory during a Mooney PPP, there was another pilot there with the same problem with his 430AW, we both asked about it, we both were told to work through our local shop, which both of us had done repeatedly.  I was also not impressed with the G1000 non-WAAS issue, which as I understand it still has not been resolved except at a megabucks cost for those unlucky enough to have the non-WAAS G1000 in their plane.

Don't get me wrong.  I love Garmin's overall design approach.  The GPS part of my 430 has been absolutely bullet proof and the single best upgrade I made to the panel back then.  And I don't want to see BK back off on their past support of GA.  I just think there aren't any of them that are perfect citizens.  Why the heck do I pay$10,000 for an installed GPS, when the consumer GPS is sold for $300.  In the 90's I flew as a passenger in charter flights out to the Bahamas where the pilot had a consumer unit in a bracket on the yoke.  Worked pretty good.

Edited June 7, 2017 by jlunseth

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, jlunseth said:

I have mixed views about Garmin as a GA citizen.  Their developments in GPS have been remarkable, but they are very pricey, there have been bugs, and their service system does not always work well.

Anytime you are dealing with software, there are going to be bugs. It's a different world now, a KX-155 was dedicated to transmitting and receiving radio signals and was built as such, all hard wired for the task. A modern navigator has to act as a two way radio, satellite receiver and personal computer. As such, it's all built using software controlling the hardware, which is no easy task. For crying out loud, my six month old Sony TV has bugs in it which causes it to momentarily blank out the screen twice an hour. Wish me luck in trying to get that resolved.

[Mooneymite]

This has been an interesting thread to read.  However, at the end of it, I feel fortunate to be dealing with the original PC.

Not very sophisticated, but it works and it is still supported at a very reasonable cost.  AND no software issues!  

[flyboy0681]

I'm surprised nobody has posted this link. Can you say BS?

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/may/23/bendixking-legacy-repairs-to-be-factory-driven

[Marauder]

I'm surprised nobody has posted this link. Can you say BS?
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/may/23/bendixking-legacy-repairs-to-be-factory-driven

I love the way they sugarcoated their logic. So you are talking about avionics that have been field serviced since their introduction. In many cases for over 30 years. So just now you are seeing a quality issue with field service?


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[steingar]

Just another step into BK's long slow journey into irrelevance.  A real pity too, they used to be the top dogs.  But do you think I'd purchase any BK product after this?  I am saddened that I picked up an old BK IFR GPS off this very site.  I am considering offloading it on Ebay rather than putting it in the aircraft.

[jetdriven]

22 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

I'm surprised nobody has posted this link. Can you say BS?

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/may/23/bendixking-legacy-repairs-to-be-factory-driven

The magazine article is making a remarkably good spin on this news. Instead of an avionics shop replacing a smoked capacitor the customer now has to wait several days, oh, and pay about 3k for all but the simplest of repairs. 

One data point about the factory's quality of work. My boss sent in his king KN-53 nag becuase a couple digits wouldn't display.  The bill was 900$. We install it and it won't turn on.  We send it back and a week later it comes back but now the small knob won't tune the .xx digits.  They tried to say we broke it and it was a  big fight over the phone.  After a month we had a working radio  

 

[flyboy0681]

28 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The magazine article is making a remarkably good spin on this news. Instead of an avionics shop replacing a smoked capacitor the customer now has to wait several days, oh, and pay about 3k for all but the simplest of repairs. 

One data point about the factory's quality of work. My boss sent in his king KN-53 nag becuase a couple digits wouldn't display.  The bill was 900$. We install it and it won't turn on.  We send it back and a week later it comes back but now the small knob won't tune the .xx digits.  They tried to say we broke it and it was a  big fight over the phone.  After a month we had a working radio  

 

I wrote to the author of the story stating just what you said, that he left out an important aspect, that King will probably charge a flat rate for repairs. He is willing to update the article, but wants me to furnish him with any material which will back up this assertion. Does anybody have a fixed rate repair list?

[jetdriven]

The author knows about it because he is carrying water for Bendix king. He refers to the same thread in beechtalk that this came from. All of these boxes are exchange priced at 4-6k EACH.  

Now they might claim that they simply do repairs and you can pay tbat, but this is the company that charges you 1300$ to condemn your kx-155 when you send it in for the 2k face upgrade.  So you wait a month or pay the Spex exchange price..

 

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=137910&p=1923988&hilit=Ki256#p1923988

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by jetdriven

[Marauder]

The author knows about it because he is carrying water for Bendix king. He refers to the same thread in beechtalk that this came from. All of these boxes are exchange priced at 4-6k EACH.  
Now they might claim that they simply do repairs and you can pay tbat, but this is the company that charges you 1300$ to condemn your kx-155 when you send it in for the 2k face upgrade.  So you wait a month or pay the Spex exchange price..
 
https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=137910&p=1923988&hilit=Ki256#p1923988
 
 

Damn! That some high priced Swiss watch repairs!


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[aviatoreb]

I am not sure which I am more worried (disgusted) by this change in BK policy.

-Overpriced work - significantly

-Using federal law in a monopoly play to put other business out of business

-Now to be long delays

-A reputation and many stories that suggests that despite long waits and massive price increases, that the work quality will be exceedingly poor. E.g. Bennet's story of a backwards wired dangerous servo, or Byron's story about incorrect work.

Sure Garmin has a flat rate policy but at least the price is not absurd even if it is expensive, and even more important, the reputation is for accurate reliable repairs.

But yeah many of us are currently married to BK - the autopilot and servos, even if we change out the primary instruments (aka Garmin g500 or aspen) we still can't get away from many of the BK autopilot parts.  I am definitely hoping that this year's oshkosh will reveal some kind of alternative will arise, and if so I will likely have such an upgrade in my path within a year, or first failure of  BK part - whichever comes first. Hoping for trutrek or the like.  And some kind of experimental to certified instrumentation to drive it.

Looks like the end of the road for fine swiss watch mechanical equipment has about arrived thanks to BK the company.

Expensive because its aviation, ok, I signed up for that and its annoying when an unexpected expensive repair comes, but it happens.  But this BK maneuver, is insulting, and I am not one to take kindly to such extortion and manipulation.

Edited June 6, 2017 by aviatoreb

[Godfather]

Please give me an address to send my 256 in for the core value...I'm done with it and 40k doesn't sound so bad...

[Marcopolo]

  I'm with Godfather, if all the repair facilities that currently do work on BK products sent in all of their shelf stock instruments and got half the core value that the SPEX program suggests then most of those facility owners could probably retire.  

  Wentworth's stock (if traded) just went up exponentially based on this rate sheet.

 

Ron

[peevee]

sounds like a huge boost for aspen and garmin sales.

[Bob_Belville]

8 minutes ago, peevee said:

sounds like a huge boost for aspen and garmin sales.

Yeah, if BK had any market share left for the others to pick up.

[peevee]

15 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah, if BK had any market share left for the others to pick up.

Not even that, if the repair costs are such that it's not much more to replace your equipment with a new aspen or garmin g5, then why wouldn't you? We have a king backup AI, if it failed and I could use the g5 as a backup source then I wouldn't even consider paying king to overhaul it.

[Bob_Belville]

4 hours ago, peevee said:

Not even that, if the repair costs are such that it's not much more to replace your equipment with a new aspen or garmin g5, then why wouldn't you? We have a king backup AI, if it failed and I could use the g5 as a backup source then I wouldn't even consider paying king to overhaul it.

Yeah, my #2 NAV/COM is a KX 155. As solid as that radio is I'd have to think twice before getting it repaired if it quit. 

[Mark89114]

Almost like they have the decimal moved on their spreadsheet somehow.  That actually makes more sense than the nonsense they are trying to push.

 

 

[BillC]

  I realize this is an old post but carusoam had asked if anyone has spoken with Bob Bramble. I just spoke with him. He is still repairing BK products and has my KI-525A for repair. I needed a new stepper motor, two gears and thorough cleaning. $625.00. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by BillC