New member considering a M20M Bravo

[Filippo]

Good afternoon,

First of all very interesting site and I see there are a lot of people with knowledge here.

My name is Filippo and I live in San Diego with my wife. I was debating for long time between a Bonanza and a Mooney and I finally decided to go with a 1999 Mooney M20M bravo.

i did like the sexy V35B but at the end I love skiing and snowboarding and I was in need of a turbocharged single engine to go over those high peak around CA and UT with some stretching to CO. I was concern about payload at the beginning, but at the end of the game is always me, my wife , snowboards and few clothes.... and we can do fuel stop.... so I can go to the bathroom :-)

i will have a lot of questions in the following week, so be patient with me.

so starting from the beginning: 

this is the winner : https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17384411/1999-mooney-m20m-gx-bravo

anybody know a good shop for a prebuy in Boise Idaho?

Any CFI in that area for my insurance endorsement requirement ? I'm an ATP and CFI-I but I like to do things right . I started flying in 1992 and spent 22 years in the airforce flying fighters and now I fly corporate (just a quick background ).

any comment on this specific airplane? Anything I should know on the specific model?

thanks again for your time and looking forward to be a good member of the group

Filippo

 

 

 

 

[Hank]

Good evening, and welcome! Have you scrolled down on the Home page and found the Mooney Bravo section? Should be lots of good reading there.

Many people think of the Bravo as their personal airliner. It should excel at the mission you have outlined. I believe we have a couple of Idaho planes here.

Best wishes, and fly safe.

[JohnB]

Welcome Filipo and great choice! Yes, as Hank said, I do feel my M is my personal airliner, and that's a good price if all is well with the airplane. 

Prebuy I would just choose a Mooney Service center. If it was last done at a service center, I might consider doing it at a different one just to get another shops eyes on it.

Mooney specific instructor highly recommended for your transition training and your insurance endorsement that you'll need. I would highly recommend Don Kaye. If you're living in San Diego, Chuck McGill is also there, but I have not flown with him.

if you want to arrange a flight one day in my M which might answer some of your questions by actually seeing it in action, let me know! I'm based at Long Beach. 

John

[Filippo]

John,

will be great. I'm flying back from Vancouver tomorrow and will be in San Diego all week. I will land in SNA on Thursday as well but I don't know yet how long will stay. Free on the weekend as well and leaving again Monday for a week.....

thank you very much !!!

I don't know site  rules about exchanging personal email or cell , so before doing it I ask about it.

thanks again

filippo 

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Filippo said:

I don't know site  rules about exchanging personal email or cell , so before doing it I ask about it.

Welcome aboard. There's no rule against it, but it isn't advisable on a public forum. Click on the users name and send them a private message. That's a better way to exchange contact details.

And while you're at it, update the details in your avatar so we know where you're based.

[Danb]

Welcome Fil,great choice, I may be somewhat partial I consider the Bravo the best plane in the flee and I'm not the l sat bit bias. I had two J models, friends had all models from cubbies through a citation. The Bravo has a lycoming which has the best cylinders, long body,is very comfy can have FIKI, LR tanks on and on. Easily cruise at 200+ , dial back and fly efficiently ( but our guys like to eat),

Good luck, the plane you chose looks awesome, get a good prebuy, instructor love it.

 

Dan

[jackn]

Don Kaye has a nice website donkaye.com. Worth a look. 

[carqwik]

Advanced Aircraft in Troutdale, OR (KTTD).  Talk to Greg Lehmann...he owns the place.  They are a MSC.

[Filippo]

3 hours ago, carqwik said:

Advanced Aircraft in Troutdale, OR (KTTD).  Talk to Greg Lehmann...he owns the place.  They are a MSC.

Thanks

[thinwing]

On 4/29/2017 at 7:58 PM, Filippo said:

Good afternoon,

First of all very interesting site and I see there are a lot of people with knowledge here.

My name is Filippo and I live in San Diego with my wife. I was debating for long time between a Bonanza and a Mooney and I finally decided to go with a 1999 Mooney M20M bravo.

i did like the sexy V35B but at the end I love skiing and snowboarding and I was in need of a turbocharged single engine to go over those high peak around CA and UT with some stretching to CO. I was concern about payload at the beginning, but at the end of the game is always me, my wife , snowboards and few clothes.... and we can do fuel stop.... so I can go to the bathroom :-)

i will have a lot of questions in the following week, so be patient with me.

so starting from the beginning: 

this is the winner : https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17384411/1999-mooney-m20m-gx-bravo

anybody know a good shop for a prebuy in Boise Idaho?

Any CFI in that area for my insurance endorsement requirement ? I'm an ATP and CFI-I but I like to do things right . I started flying in 1992 and spent 22 years in the airforce flying fighters and now I fly corporate (just a quick background ).

any comment on this specific airplane? Anything I should know on the specific model?

thanks again for your time and looking forward to be a good member of the group

Filippo

 

 

 

 

Welcome Filipino...For the insurance checkout I used Chuck McGill ..I only had to fly with him 1.5 hrs ..We used another Bravo based at Montgomery ..Chucks hanger is located next to Crown Avation a Mooney MSC.I did this while My Bravo was in Prepurchase /annual so I could fly it back from Texas.There is a learning curve for you depending on your piston experience.I assume you currently fly trailing link turbines ...Bravos are not as forgiving and power management is more complicated than a simple thrust lever.Nothing you can't handle with your experience level..just different and you already know how to strictly fly by the numbers!!Your new bird looks really good ..I remember looking at it before the crankshaft/overhaul...I passed on it because it lacked anti-ice...good luck with the purchase .

[AndyFromCB]

Not even a hot prop on this bird? Are you only expecting to fly VFR? Just wondering what your thoughts are here. I'd rather find a bird with TKS than the fancy panel, especially as you're saying you plan on using it for skiing trips.

[gsxrpilot]

I wouldn't consider a Bravo without talking with @donkaye. He might have more Bravo time than anyone here and has flown many Bravo's and other models other than his own. 

The larger the investment, the more knowledge is critical.

[thinwing]

18 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

Not even a hot prop on this bird? Are you only expecting to fly VFR? Just wondering what your thoughts are here. I'd rather find a bird with TKS than the fancy panel, especially as you're saying you plan on using it for skiing trips.

No hot prop but probably pitot heat....Dons Bravo also lacks TKS...he is very diligent in avoiding potential icing encounters...I've certainly had use for it over the years ,and in the beginning probably used and depended on it more than wise.It always got me out of jams though...now days I practice avoidance like Don if I can.Mostly because my wife is always along...and she is wise to the icing thing.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

No hot prop but probably pitot heat....Dons Bravo also lacks TKS...he is very diligent in avoiding potential icing encounters...I've certainly had use for it over the years ,and in the beginning probably used and depended on it more than wise.It always got me out of jams though...now days I practice avoidance like Don if I can.Mostly because my wife is always along...and she is wise to the icing thing.

I just checked back 10 logbooks and found that my first logged flight was 9/17/1967, so that will make 50 years of flying this coming September.  With that experience I am now certain that with a single engine airplane weighing some 3300 pounds I'd rather not be flying in any weather that requires deicing equipment.  TKS works great and I've flown a number of TKS airplanes in weather that required that equipment, but I personally haven't chosen to put it on my airplane because of the useful load penalty and the experience mentioned above.  I'm just not going to fly in those types of conditions.  However, if I lived in a climate where I wouldn't be able to fly all winter due to possible icing conditions, then I would relent and put it on.

[David Medders]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

...I am now certain that with a single engine airplane weighing some 3300 pounds I'd rather not be flying in any weather that requires deicing equipment.

 

Perhaps my definition of weather that requires anti-icing equipment differs from Don's. I have a FIKI TKS Bravo and I cannot imagine flying without TKS.

The majority of my TKS use is summer, not winter. If you want a smooth ride flying in the western US, you want TKS. The combination of high-teens altitudes and visible moisture means icing conditions. I, surprisingly, needed TKS to safely depart KLGB in May a few years ago, en route to KTUS. The freezing level was 5,000 MSL with LOTS of visible moisture. My typical winter usage is clearing that pesky 1,000 to 2,000-foot thick layer that traps non-FIKI airplanes or tempts pilots to risk climbing through before they load up with ice.

With my equipment recommendation given, I will also strongly recommend TKS users become one with the STC AFM supplement and take FIKI training with someone who knows TKS. Safe use of TKS requires far more than a switch flip.

As an aside, our Mooney TKS systems are far more redundant than the Hawker jet's TKS system.

David

 

[donkaye]

The other major issue with the TKS System is when you have problems with it.  It can be VERY expensive to repair.  Replacing a TKS panel costs in the thousands of dollars and can ground the airplane for months waiting for a panel to be made in England.  It's a dual system for everything, so you have many pumps that can go out over time.  I just got done with a flight from KSBA to KDPA delivering a new to the buyer Acclaim.  Halfway through the trip I tested the system and it didn't work.  After I landed midway, lots of fluid was draining out of the middle of the airplane.  It was costly to repair.

I'd much rather have the system to use on someone else's airplane where they're carrying the cost load than have it on my own, recognizing that there are times when I remain on the ground.  Of course, just one point of view.

[Filippo]

Hi Don,

nice to virtually meet you... I completely agree with you.

Andy, like I mentioned in my short introduction , I have flown most of my career ,jet airplane in the military, but I kept myself active as a flying instructor as well in my spare time. I usually like to teach advance acrobatic, formation and spins.... I guess my test pilot background got me there :-)))) 

but I will never ever fly with a single engine in any know icing condition , regardless if I have TKS, hot prop or boots...or someone sitting on my wings scrapping ice off :-)))). if by mistake I fall asleep and I get into icing condition I immediately get out ( 180, climb descent or whatever it takes). 

Single engine in icing and most likely in clouds.... not for me. I value my life and I can assure you I did a lot of stupid things, especially during test flights to bring fighters outside their flying envelope, to assess new limits with change of configuration.

anyway... back to planet earth , for this specific reason, I prefer to have more weight for fuel than tsk system and fluid, especially in a plane where payload is limited.

my previous airplane was a Cessna 310 turbo Q, with all anti ice equipments and even there I was avoiding ice. On my daily job, I also stay away from ice with passengers if I can. Most of the time,  ice is associated with clouds and bumpy air and all this elements are not making corporate passengers happy. 

Just a thought 

 

 

 

 

 

[thinwing]

Your like the Bravo..it replaced my d55 Baron....perfect for two

[Filippo]

I didn't get my pre-approval in time, so unfortunately that is gone and my next option is this one, any thoughts?

going to check it next week all the way to the east coast

filippo 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1458355/2005-mooney-m20m-gx-bravo

 

[donkaye]

15 minutes ago, Filippo said:

I didn't get my pre-approval in time, so unfortunately that is gone and my next option is this one, any thoughts?

going to check it next week all the way to the east coast

filippo 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1458355/2005-mooney-m20m-gx-bravo

 

I'd pass on that one.  Why in the world would they not have built it with the GFC 700 instead of the S-Tec.  I think it has been discussed in another thread, but upgrading to WAAS with the S-Tec is either problematic or VERY expensive or both.  Maybe someone who knows better can chime it.

[carusoam]

Why the rush for the next Bravo to appear?

Good/nice planes are always selling in short periods of time.

To catch a good/nice plane it helps to have money, PPI, insurance, and TT planned in advance.

This usually happens with a cautious first time buyer. Slow comfortable steps until a ready buyer with cash comes in.

How many people are you competing with to buy a Bravo?

Playing with an open hand can be a challenge.

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

My experience has been that shopping in out in the open is useful and valuable as you get lots of feedback and are less likely to overlook or miss issues with specific planes, and you'll likely find a better one.

BUT... you gotta have all your ducks in a row and be ready to pull the trigger BEFORE you go shopping.  You need to at least be able to throw down a 10% deposit in cash on a moments notice... or you're not a serious shopper.

I believe I already own my forever plane right now... but just so you all know... if I'm ever in the market again... and come to look at your plane, I will have cash in my pocket... you've been warned 

[Filippo]

I had cash in hand, but needed financing for a certain portion and I don't like yo waste people time if I don't everything lined up. For some reason, first lender messed up with numbers, second one approved me  in a day after submitting all documents already presented to first lender.

Don, you are correct Stec 55 are approved for enroute Waas but still not for GPS  approach at LPV minimum. Upgrade will be around probably 20K but consider purchase price, for a 2005, equipped like it is, it is well below appraised value. Lender appraised at 240K.

Any thoughts?

I honestly haven't seen anything in the market priced so aggressively. You have to admit that if everything else checks good is a lot of value for the money. Yes it has 2 incidents...a gear up and a prop strike.... that was honestly why was my second choice at the beginning , but I like the idea of a 2005 with only 700 hours.... will need ads-b out by 2020 and eventually WAAS.

Back to you, I value your opinions guys.

thanks again

Filippo

 

[donkaye]

2 minutes ago, Filippo said:

I had cash in hand, but needed financing for a certain portion and I don't like yo waste people time if I don't everything lined up. For some reason, first lender messed up with numbers, second one approved me  in a day after submitting all documents already presented to first lender.

Don, you are correct Stec 55 are approved for enroute Waas but still not for GPS  approach at LPV minimum. Upgrade will be around probably 20K but consider purchase price, for a 2005, equipped like it is, it is well below appraised value. Lender appraised at 240K.

Any thoughts?

I honestly haven't seen anything in the market priced so aggressively. You have to admit that if everything else checks good is a lot of value for the money. Yes it has 2 incidents...a gear up and a prop strike.... that was honestly why was my second choice at the beginning , but I like the idea of a 2005 with only 700 hours.... will need ads-b out by 2020 and eventually WAAS.

Back to you, I value your opinions guys.

thanks again

Filippo

 

If you want a G1000 airplane, then you want it to have the GFC 700.  There are no free lunches. 

[carusoam]

Compared to a new plane price, the aggressive pricing would make me uneasy.  This Bravo is highly unused.  The unfortunate gear up and prop strike in a short period of time is probably not the fault of the plane.

a very strong PPI is probably the best course of action to make sure the plane has been put back together properly.  The PPI is to protect the owner's wallet.  The owner decides how strong and what should be looked at in the PPI.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI.  I used DMax for the PPI on my plane..  

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 5, 2017 by carusoam