Looking for some Denver area advice

[Vance Harral]

Just now, peevee said:

you need to be on the lookout for a kingair and or a twin otter hauling ass into the pattern though.

Agreed, those are the jump planes and they do enter the pattern from steep descents.  On the other hand, I've never personally had a "crazy skydive pilot" scare in 15 years of flying at Longmont.  I find the current batch of jump pilots to be professional.  They pay attention to what's going on in the pattern as soon as they roll in after the drop, position appropriately on the way down, make reasonable radio calls, and work into a reasonable spot, slowing down if necessary to do so.  No dive bombing in front of everyone, as seems to be the stereotypical complaint about skydive ops.

This is not to say I've never heard a single complaint about the jump planes.  But to be honest, the complaints I recall tended to come from pilots who I felt lacked some experience and understanding of different speeds and energy management.  A King Air entering mid-field downwind at 150 knots is not "cutting in front of you" if you just turned crosswind to downwind at 75 knots in a 172.

[midlifeflyer]

25 minutes ago, peevee said:

90% of the time in the summer they'll depart on 1 west and one north runway land north x3.

True. But it still affects the likelihood of a clearance across the tip of the airport.

[peevee]

44 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Agreed, those are the jump planes and they do enter the pattern from steep descents.  On the other hand, I've never personally had a "crazy skydive pilot" scare in 15 years of flying at Longmont.  I find the current batch of jump pilots to be professional.  They pay attention to what's going on in the pattern as soon as they roll in after the drop, position appropriately on the way down, make reasonable radio calls, and work into a reasonable spot, slowing down if necessary to do so.  No dive bombing in front of everyone, as seems to be the stereotypical complaint about skydive ops.

This is not to say I've never heard a single complaint about the jump planes.  But to be honest, the complaints I recall tended to come from pilots who I felt lacked some experience and understanding of different speeds and energy management.  A King Air entering mid-field downwind at 150 knots is not "cutting in front of you" if you just turned crosswind to downwind at 75 knots in a 172.

There's also a warning about flying over the field at the end of the awos tape recorded by the one and only don dolce haha

[JohnB]

Ok sub question, as I'd like to fly to the Colorado area. Any advice for us West coasters going to the Denver area in one day? Im thinking of either going around the Rockies i.e. LGB ABQ DEN, or over them high enough at least 18k++ depending on winds. Might be tough to arrive in the morning, unless I leave at really 0 dark thirty, but if I leave at a reasonable morning time, and go the ABQ route, is that how you West coasters get there? Also, if descending from very high coming from the west over the mountains, or going to the west from the Denver area having to do lots of climbing or descending through the Bravo area, how are the controllers? Are they helpful in giving you plenty of time to get up or down? Advice appreciated!

 

John

 

 

[peevee]

Coming from the west they don't have space to give you time to descend. It'll be a slam dunk especially into bjc depending in where you pop out. For morer time file powder.powdr8 that'll help.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

John, I've flown nonstop to Denver from Northern and Southern California dozens of times. I leave as early as possible and go direct at 17,500' or higher.

The Class Bravo ends at the base of the foothills and the floor there is 10,500'. If you're VFR then you can plan your descent to get below that in plenty of time. That's what I usually do. Don't expect a clearance into the Bravo if you're VFR; the only time they gave me one was when I told them I lost oil pressure and wanted to stay as high as possible on my way back to Centennial.

If you're IFR then peevee is right. ATC will generally keep you high until the last minute, then slam-dunk you with orders to remain clear of the Bravo. That's why if I'm on an IFR flight plan but conditions are VFR, I cancel about 50 miles out and manage my own descent.

The controllers are great but it's hard to get a Bravo clearance, especially coming in from the west.

[peevee]

Oh, I forgot people fly xc vfr

[FoxMike]

When inbound from the west IFR you generally get routed to one of the corner posts, either northwest or southwest.  I usually get 16 or 17K.  Depends on the controller and the time of day but you can get vectored around a lot.  My Bravo lives next to DIA so the controllers have problems finding vacant airspace.  If your are going to the west side of Denver you get a slam dunk.  Coming in VFR can be less hassle but a bumpy ride.  If you want a preview of the IFR arrival checkout the Larks 8 arrival.

[peevee]

Larks would be for APA maybe ftg I can't remember. anything north like bjc would be the powdr. 

 

[1964-M20E]

Good information in a couple of weeks It looks like I will be going to KFNL or KCYS as a stop on my way to Idaho.  I want to make the highest crossing early in the morning but that may have me arriving in the afternoon to KFNL.  I can always stop shorter if WX gets too bad at KFNL.

 

 

[Hank]

10 hours ago, peevee said:

Oh, I forgot people fly xc vfr

Yep, the wife and I went flightseeing from WV to Yellowstone and back, a year before I started Instrument training. Yes, I realize that's onlyrics halfway across the country  (and back again) . . . .

[peevee]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

Yep, the wife and I went flightseeing from WV to Yellowstone and back, a year before I started Instrument training. Yes, I realize that's onlyrics halfway across the country  (and back again) . . . .

I'm just lazy. I'll take the trade offs to put some of the workload on the controllers, especially out west here in the summer when fire tfrs pop up with little notice.

[JohnB]

On 4/27/2017 at 5:57 AM, peevee said:

Coming from the west they don't have space to give you time to descend. It'll be a slam dunk especially into bjc depending in where you pop out. For morer time file powder.powdr8 that'll help.

Hugely helpful, I pretty much always file ifr cross country. I'm trying to plan the flight to also keep my gf happy (not too many bumps or speed dives) .  I'm guessing my Rockies crossing altitude will be from 17 to 21k depending on winds. I'd like to be able to get to KAPA and or KBJC and it looks like powder8 or larks 8 work for both, and are doable with expected end dunk and I'm hoping, with speed brakes and gear, I can to try to do a max of 800 maybe 900fpm descents if my significant other is with me, hope the controllers don't mind if I slow down a bit so I don't have to descend much faster than that? If I chose to fly at just say above 20k over the mountains to avoid turbulence.

On 4/27/2017 at 8:06 AM, Joe Zuffoletto said:

John, I've flown nonstop to Denver from Northern and Southern California dozens of times. I leave as early as possible and go direct at 17,500' or higher.

The Class Bravo ends at the base of the foothills and the floor there is 10,500'. If you're VFR then you can plan your descent to get below that in plenty of time. That's what I usually do. Don't expect a clearance into the Bravo if you're VFR; the only time they gave me one was when I told them I lost oil pressure and wanted to stay as high as possible on my way back to Centennial.

Interesting, VFR direct and descend yourself . That would solve the dive issue, but looks like it'll be bumpy under 10.5 for a while. Oh and when you say early as possible, in my plane it's about a 4 hour trip, and I lose an hour going east. So if I took off at 0700  that would get me there at around noon local, do you usually do your same day trips from SoCal arriving earlier or is noon arrival a rollercoaster? 

On 4/27/2017 at 9:07 AM, FoxMike said:

When inbound from the west IFR you generally get routed to one of the corner posts, either northwest or southwest.  I usually get 16 or 17K.  Depends on the controller and the time of day but you can get vectored around a lot.  My Bravo lives next to DIA so the controllers have problems finding vacant airspace.  If your are going to the west side of Denver you get a slam dunk.  Coming in VFR can be less hassle but a bumpy ride.  If you want a preview of the IFR arrival checkout the Larks 8 arrival.

Got it! I certainly don't mind as many vectors for descents if they'll give em to me. (They don't often give them in my neck of the woods without some reason like carrying animals or something).  By corner posts, do you mean RSK or JNC on the entries to the arrivals? 

 

Thanks guys, hugely helpful!

John

[peevee]

Larks.larks8 for apa

Powdr.powdr8 for bjc

Those are the correct ones to use despite the way they're published.

 

The arrival gates are powdr and larks on the sw, ramms tomsn nw, landr sayge ne and dandd quail on the se.

You'll be under the faster traffic so they shouldn't mind a slowdown.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

14 hours ago, JohnB said:

Interesting, VFR direct and descend yourself . That would solve the dive issue, but looks like it'll be bumpy under 10.5 for a while. Oh and when you say early as possible, in my plane it's about a 4 hour trip, and I lose an hour going east. So if I took off at 0700  that would get me there at around noon local, do you usually do your same day trips from SoCal arriving earlier or is noon arrival a rollercoaster?

My flights from the coast are at the same time, arriving Denver around noon. It's almost always bumpy descending into town. Just a fact of life around here.

[JohnB]

Thank you peevee and Joe!

[peevee]

32 minutes ago, rogerl said:

Sounds like you're coming more from the East, but initial thinking from KABQ to KAPA would have me on a nice scenic route: up the Rio Grande valley from KABQ through KSKX by Alamosa and then through La Veta.  Looks easy.  Then fortunately did some searching and found:

"Then pilots may think La Veta Pass looks like a really good option, being unaware that La Veta has some of the strongest mountain-wave conditions in the country."

So I almost got suckered in as well.  Even with an ovation, I am now planning on going around the front range, KLVS, KTAD etc. assuming the winds at 12-15 are westerly and greater than 15 kts.

ref: http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/weather/deadly-downdrafts-understanding-risks

CDOT sends out free maps with preferred routes, just get one of those, it'll go a long way to helping you pick a route.

https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics/request-form

 

though not of much use now that tablets have taken over, the airport directories are neat to have too and cost three dollars

https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics

 

they have great photos of the airports usually.

 

Alamosa is absolutely terrible for mtn wave basically all the time it seems

Oh, and a side note: don't try and fly i70 thinking it's the low ground. There's a big tunnel that about every year or so someone manages to crash near.

[ArtVandelay]

What’s the weather like in early June? Specifically chances of severe weather (including hail) and expected winds especially at 12000’-18000’ ?

TIA

[Vance Harral]

32 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

What’s the weather like in early June? Specifically chances of severe weather (including hail) and expected winds especially at 12000’-18000’ ?

Statistically?  It's nice almost every morning, and bumpy with CU buildups and T-storms in the afternoon.  Winds above 12K are nearly always out of the west.  None of that statistical information is meaningful or helpful with respect to a particular day or week, of course.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

47 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

What’s the weather like in early June? Specifically chances of severe weather (including hail) and expected winds especially at 12000’-18000’ ?

TIA

Weather in early June is usually quite nice in the mornings. Afternoons can bring turbulence and thunderstorms. Our mantra around here is "up and down before noon."

[ArtVandelay]

20 minutes ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

Weather in early June is usually quite nice in the mornings. Afternoons can bring turbulence and thunderstorms. Our mantra around here is "up and down before noon."

That’s the plan, do I have to worry about hail?

[Vance Harral]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

That’s the plan, do I have to worry about hail?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  This seems like asking if you need to worry about wind shear, or wake turbulence, or bird strikes, or other possible-but-low-probability events.

If you're asking if it ever hails in June here, the answer is "Yes, occasionally."

[ArtVandelay]

Just now, Vance Harral said:

I'm not sure I understand the question.  This seems like asking if you need to worry about wind shear, or wake turbulence, or bird strikes, or other possible-but-low-probability events.

If you're asking if it ever hails in June here, the answer is "Yes, occasionally."

I’m worried about leaving my plane tied down outside, hence the question. Thx