Autopilot without gps

[salty]

I'm still trying to figure out my path here. My plan was to install an autopilot next, but I have no gps and I'm not clear on what capabilities I'll really have with an Ap without a panel mount gps. 

It it seems like a waas gps would serve to drive an AP as well as making adsb compliance easier. 

But, it's going to cost a fortune. My thought is that a used 430 or even 400w that I install myself (not ifr certified) might be a cheap approach that would leave me more cash for an autopilot. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by salty

[carusoam]

When you say make an autopilot...?

Is the pilot IFR or VFR?

 

a pilot without guidance can get lost above a cloud layer...

 

A waas gps is all the range and probably will be for some time...

An AP doesn't do anything more than what the pilot does himself...

 

my AP (without gps)

- holds altitude

- holds heading

- guided by VOR

- follows an ILS with precision almost to the ground

 

my AP (w/ non waas gps)

- is a breeze to navigate waypoint to waypoint. Never lost. Never confused.  (Pilot)

 

my AP w/ waas gps and gpss would fly an entire flight plan and end with the latest approaches close to the ground

 

Short on cash? go with an approach capable GPS. Hand fly your plane....

VFR PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 19, 2017 by carusoam

[salty]

17 minutes ago, carusoam said:

When you say make an autopilot...?

Is the pilot IFR or VFR?

 

a pilot without guidance can get lost above a cloud layer...

 

A waas gps is all the range and probably will be for some time...

An AP doesn't do anything more than what the pilot does himself...

 

my AP (without gps)

- holds altitude

- holds heading

- guided by VOR

- follows an ILS with precision almost to the ground

 

my AP (w/ non waas gps)

- is a breeze to navigate waypoint to waypoint. Never lost. Never confused.  (Pilot)

 

my AP w/ waas gps and gpss would fly an entire flight plan and end with the latest approaches close to the ground

 

Short on cash? go with an approach capable GPS. Hand fly your plane....

VFR PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

I meant make an autopilot next priority. I'm vfr. Also considering spending the money on ifr instead of gear, but my time is going to be limited so probably not. 

I don't understand how the AP would know where to go without input from a gps or at least a VOR and the thought of flying VOR to VOR is annoying. I'm thinking trutrak won't use turn and bank, and if it could seems crappy also. 

Why do you suggest a gps that can do an approach for a vfr pilot without an AP? Just curious your logic there. 

[1964-M20E]

1. If you are going to work on your IR then you really do not need or want an auto pilot.  Hand fly the plane all the time and you will be a much better IR pilot.
2. Once you have your IR AP is really nice to have.
3. If you are really serious about an AP then look into the TRIO thread and seriously consider committing to that AP if it works for you.

[carusoam]

Some pre waas gps boxes can navigate IFR approaches.  Used equipment is a couple of amu + install.  Low cost, excellent performance.

If IR training...  VOR, ILS, GPS are the current norms.  ILS (precision approach) can get you down near the ground where VOR and non-waas gps (non-precision approach) will leave you off near 1k' above the ground.

The AP is only as good as the source of data it is being provided... waas is better, non-waas is good.

if planning to stay VFR, you have different priorities then planning to be IR.

 

APs get their guidance from multiple boxes or a single box with multiple skills....

A GTN can navigate a heading, a VOR, an ILS, and a waas GPS...

an AP can follow the source the pilot selects...

lots of flexibility in the plan.  

Lots of cost to fully execute the plan.

Best regards,

-a-

[smwash02]

An AutoPilot will run off of a CDI or a GPSS signal.

I flew IFR in my 150 that had a KNS80 and no autopilot and I longed for the GPS way more than the autopilot. My requirement for the next plane was a 430W or better, autopilot was optional.

A well rigged plane and good use of the trim wheel is about as good as an autopilot. In your shoes I would get a 430W and install it yourself, which will still be approved for IFR.

Edited April 19, 2017 by smwash02

[Marauder]

I'm still trying to figure out my path here. My plan was to install an autopilot next, but I have no gps and I'm not clear on what capabilities I'll really have with an Ap without a panel mount gps. 
It it seems like a waas gps would serve to drive an AP as well as making adsb compliance easier. 
But, it's going to cost a fortune. My thought is that a used 430 or even 400w that I install myself (not ifr certified) might be a cheap approach that would leave me more cash for an autopilot. 

I installed an STEC 60-2 way before I had a GPS in the panel. For me, although I could link it to fly a VOR or coupled with an ILS, the biggest advantage of the autopilot was being able to set the heading bug and altitude and keep myself fresh for when I hand flew the approach.

Having flown for years in the northeast, just being able to let "George" fly while I am trying to sort out a new routing is well worth the investment.


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[salty]

9 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I installed an STEC 60-2 way before I had a GPS in the panel. For me, although I could link it to fly a VOR or coupled with an ILS, the biggest advantage of the autopilot was being able to set the heading bug and altitude and keep myself fresh for when I hand flew the approach.

Having flown for years in the northeast, just being able to let "George" fly while I am trying to sort out a new routing is well worth the investment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

I'm unclear on how I would drive the AP with the equipment I have. I don't have anything with a "bug" on it. Will an AP like the trutrak provide a "bug"? I don't think so. 

[Marauder]

I'm unclear on how I would drive the AP with the equipment I have. I don't have anything with a "bug" on it. Will an AP like the trutrak provide a "bug"? I don't think so. 

 

What you will need to drive it will be something like a G5 (if it can do the heading bug) or find someone like that nice Marauder to sell you his DG with the AP heading bug. Of course it will depend on what you select as an autopilot.

 

 

 

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[N601RX]

2 hours ago, salty said:

I'm still trying to figure out my path here. My plan was to install an autopilot next, but I have no gps and I'm not clear on what capabilities I'll really have with an Ap without a panel mount gps. 

It it seems like a waas gps would serve to drive an AP as well as making adsb compliance easier. 

But, it's going to cost a fortune. My thought is that a used 430 or even 400w that I install myself (not ifr certified) might be a cheap approach that would leave me more cash for an autopilot. 

If you just vfr and need something cheap to drive a autopilot buy something like a a KLN 89 and do a vfr only install. It just consist of hooking up power, gnd and coax.  These can be found for under $500. 

[glafaille]

An autopilot is WAY more useful for IFR than VFR.  When IFR you are required to hold assigned headings and altitudes within pretty tight parameters.  VFR ops have no such requirements.  

Imagine flying solid IMC while trying to program the GPS for an ATC assigned re-route or better still, program a new approach at the last minute due to a runway change at the destination.  Much easier to do if "george" is holding the heading and altitude for you while you are looking at charts, twisting knobs and punching buttons.

If you are a VFR only pilot, I would think the GPS would be more useful.  Although, with an Ipad and Foreflight, even the panel mount GPS is outclassed.  The Ipad with Foreflight is vastly more useful and much less expensive.

Save your money, don't buy either.  You may need ADS-B out in a couple of years.

[OR75]

but then the A/P will be VFR only ???

I believe that even a VFR only GPS will require an A&P sign off (but not a form 337)

 

[salty]

5 minutes ago, OR75 said:

but then the A/P will be VFR only ???

I believe that even a VFR only GPS will require an A&P sign off (but not a form 337)

 

I'd "do the needful" with my a&p of course. 

[salty]

6 minutes ago, glafaille said:

An autopilot is WAY more useful for IFR than VFR.  When IFR you are required to hold assigned headings and altitudes within pretty tight parameters.  VFR ops have no such requirements.  

Imagine flying solid IMC while trying to program the GPS for an ATC assigned re-route or better still, program a new approach at the last minute due to a runway change at the destination.  Much easier to do if "george" is holding the heading and altitude for you while you are looking at charts, twisting knobs and punching buttons.

If you are a VFR only pilot, I would think the GPS would be more useful.  Although, with an Ipad and Foreflight, even the panel mount GPS is outclassed.  The Ipad with Foreflight is vastly more useful and much less expensive.

Save your money, don't buy either.  You may need ADS-B out in a couple of years.

But wouldn't having a waas gps make adsb out easier?

[salty]

39 minutes ago, N601RX said:

If you just vfr and need something cheap to drive a autopilot buy something like a a KLN 89 and do a vfr only install. It just consist of hooking up power, gnd and coax.  These can be found for under $500. 

Again, my thought was that going with waas I'd be making life easier for adsb compliance. No?

[glafaille]

Negative.  Easiest solution is an all in one box like the Stratus ESG with WAAS GPS.  No worries about getting boxes to play nice with each other. 

[salty]

54 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

What you will need to drive it will be something like a G5 (if it can do the heading bug) or find someone like that nice Marauder to sell you his DG with the AP heading bug. Of course it will depend on what you select as an autopilot.

 

 

 

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I thought G5 explicitly will NOT drive an autopilot. 

[OR75]

Mooneys are travel machines. I think a VFR only GPS would be a big limitation at resale.

weigh how much you want to keep the plane.

My opinion is that if you really want to keep it VFR and low price, just install an AERA or other portable for a fraction of the price. The GNS are still too expensive to be VFR only. The old Kings are great, but are becoming obsolete and tough to repair and have less capability than a Aera 660 for example

 

[glafaille]

Doesn't your "C" have the Brittain wing leveler?  If it hasn't been removed, why not fix it and upgrade it to track and hold altitude?  Much cheaper than installing a new STEC.

[glafaille]

You would probably be money ahead selling your plane and buying a different one with everything installed.  A WAAS GPS and an autopilot would likely run close to 30 AMUs.  You would never get that back out of your plane, lucky to get 1/2.  

Here is one that looks good: 

 

[Marauder]

I thought G5 explicitly will NOT drive an autopilot. 

The G5 HSI version I believe has the heading bug. You are thinking about the AI version that doesn't have the attitude based support for some autopilots.


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[PTK]

A little birdie whispered to me to look for autopilot support and "probably" GPSS in the G5 by Oshkosh!

 

[salty]

31 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

The G5 HSI version I believe has the heading bug. You are thinking about the AI version that doesn't have the attitude based support for some autopilots.


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Even the AI G5 has a heading bug, but neither stc version Interfaces with an AP currently.  

[salty]

19 minutes ago, PTK said:

A little birdie whispered to me to look for autopilot support and "probably" GPSS in the G5 by Oshkosh!

 

Hopefully. 

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

A little birdie whispered to me to look for autopilot support and "probably" GPSS in the G5 by Oshkosh!

 

That's the same one that has been lying to you about the KI300, Peter