United Incident

[Tommy]

4 minutes ago, gsengle said:

News reports say United went as high as $800 per passenger compensation before they resorted to the non voluntary plan.


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And there were no takers. So tell me: what should United do in this case to avoid a multi-million dollar international PR disaster? 

[Hank]

59 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

According to my frequent flyer accounts, I have flown over three million miles over the past 30 years. I can't ever recall being involuntarily bumped even once.

You've been lucky. I have just a fraction of your mileage in the same time span, and have been bumped more than once. The last time I was in my seat, and someone else appeared with a boarding pass for my seat. Don't recall how that ended up, maybe he showed up last but the stewardess made the call.

Every time I have been bumped, it was before I got on the plane. To get me off will require compensation, and if it's already beenoffered and I turned it down, then it wasn't enough. If I was bloodied up, my asking amount will add a couple of commas. What is wrong with saying, "I bought this seat, I have a boarding pass for this seat. I am sitting in this seat already."???

Have a reasonable discussion. Those who resort to violence first are admitting they have lost the argument and do not have logic on their side. In this case, they better have lots of money . . . . .

[Hank]

Just now, DonMuncy said:

Paul, You may be right, but I'm not sure I like the system. Maybe it does provide the collective public with the lowest cost air travel, but it just doesn't seem right. We have a system, where you buy a ticket to go on a flight, then go to the airport, find that it is over-booked. Now you have a situation where the airline is bargaining with all the passengers, offering an increasingly larger pay-off to get someone to wait for the next flight. When the $ gets too big for the airline to stomach, they use some sort of a computer program to decide who gets kicked off. Then if that person gets belligerent, we have the current situation, where (assuming Tommy is correct) someone is physically hurt and the airline gets a really big PR black eye. And what will certainly result in a lawsuit with a tremendous outlay of resources to fight or settle.

I wish I had a better solution, but I don't. Maybe this is just the modern world.

My understanding is that the "removers" got belligerent, the victim only sat in his seat.

He should call Alexander Shunnarah, his billboards are all up and down I-85 from north of Atlanta until it ends in Mobile . . . "There is no charge until your case is settled!"

[gsengle]

And there were no takers. So tell me: what should United do in this case to avoid a multi-million dollar international PR disaster? 

You tell me? Do we reward non compliance with well established rules? What do we do, let the guy that complains the loudest get home, and leave others stranded because maybe they followed the rules? I'm open to ideas...


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[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, Tommy said:

You were absolutely dead wrong about Australian airline industry. Not only we have strict laws specifically prohibiting overbooking, no single airline in Australia deliberately and systemically overbooks.

And if overbooking happens erroneously, guess what? You get a biz class upgrade! You want to know why this is the case? Well, this is because domestic airline business in Australia is fiercely competitive on capital city routes and laws protecting consumers are wide-ranging. A return trip from Sydney to Melbourne (1.5 hour flight) is routinely priced at $35 to 40 USD. If you are late, you only need to pay another $40USD to get on the next available flight. And if you flight got cancelled they refund you and give you $100USD voucher as a gesture of goodwill (and will gladly pay for your accommodation plus transportation to and fro airport if you are stranded overnight). I know because it happened to me couple of times and I flied frequently for conferences and work (no lesser than you). 

Qantas Conditions of Carriage 10.3 - Denied Boarding Compensation

[DonMuncy]

Just now, Hank said:

My understanding is that the "removers" got belligerent, the victim only sat in his seat.

He should call Alexander Shunnarah, his billboards are all up and down I-85 from north of Atlanta until it ends in Mobile . . . "There is no charge until your case is settled!"

Hank,

I probably misspoke. The doctor may have very quietly and nicely refused to vacate his seat. I will probably never have all the facts and understanding to sort out the needs of all the players, about who and why the bump occurred. My biggest problem is that we somehow have grown a system that usually works, but sometimes has massive bad results. Maybe the fact that is usually works overshadows the failures. I just wish it didn't have to be that way. 

[Tommy]

1 minute ago, gsengle said:

 

You tell me? Do we reward non compliance with well established rules? What do we do, let the guy that complains the loudest get home, and leave others stranded because maybe they followed the rules? I'm open to ideas...


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Okay. For the last time, "UP THE ANTE UNTIL THERE IS A TAKER. 2K. 4K. I DON'T CARE!" Quote United CEO in post-incident debrief with the crew...

[kevinw]

It's one thing to bump someone before he has boarded but quite another once seated. If there were no takers at $800 they should've kept going. Perhaps $1,000 - $1,200 would've done it and we wouldn't be discussing this. In any case, when asked to leave the airplane he should have complied because the decision was made and he was getting off one way or another. I don't make waves when it comes to TSA, law enforcement, etc and life has been good that way. I would've grabbed my stuff, left the plane and never fly UAL again. No offense to the UAL employee but I've never been a fan of that airline anyway. No major problems just unfriendly flight attendants in my experience. Old and grumpy. I like Southwest and have never had an issue with them. I'm not an employee of SWA or affiliated with them in any way, just good travel experiences with them; one just yesterday in fact.

[Tommy]

9 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Qantas Conditions of Carriage 10.3 - Denied Boarding Compensation

"...we will offer you a seat on the next available flight on our services. If this is not acceptable to you, we will provide compensation and any care required by any law which may apply or in accordance with our policy if there is no applicable law. This will depend on the jurisdiction in which the denied boarding occurs..."

And our laws say you will compensate all material losses including meals, transportation, and accommodation. 

The difference between Qantas and United is that Qantas DOES NOT deliberately and systematically overbook passengers EVEN - get this - when it can make more profit by doing so because its condition of carriage offers great deal of corporate protection and risk minimization. 

[gsengle]

Can you show a citation for that? I don't think the law is much different in the US. You don't know they weren't going to provide hotel and food etc...


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[gsengle]

Okay. For the last time, "UP THE ANTE UNTIL THERE IS A TAKER. 2K. 4K. I DON'T CARE!" Quote United CEO in post-incident debrief with the crew...

I bet the airline doesn't give the people on the ground the latitude to do that, anyone know?


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[Tommy]

7 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Can you show a citation for that? I don't think the law is much different in the US. You don't know they weren't going to provide hotel and food etc...


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I knew because I was put in a 4.5 star hotel in Singapore for 2 days because the plane had a major maintenance issue and the next two flights were fully booked. I was given $200USD vouchers and $50USD daily allowance. And, get this, I was flying with Jetstar at the time - a no-frill budget subsidiary airline of Qantas (my hospital paid the flight - $400USD return HK to Melbourne) !

Do I want it to happen? No, of course not. I lost an entire day of hospital work. But did I travel with Jetstar again? You bet I did!

[Tom]

7 minutes ago, gsengle said:

You tell me? Do we reward non compliance with well established rules? What do we do, let the guy that complains the loudest get home, and leave others stranded because maybe they followed the rules? I'm open to ideas...

VERY easy solution: increase the mandatory payouts that the airline has to pay you if/when they bump you in an overbook situation.  Instead of the current 400% of the ticket cost max $1300 cost....raise it to $6,000 or somesuch.  There currently is no incentive for the airline to offer you more at the gate than they've have to pay per the regs to bump you. Zero. 

Buying a ticket is not the entrance fee to an auction that starts at the gate.  It's a freaking airplane ticket.

[gsengle]

I asked for some evidence that Qantas doesn't overbook. All airlines will put up passengers...


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[Tommy]

Just now, gsengle said:

I asked for some evidence that Qantas doesn't overbook. All airlines will put up passengers...


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Again, please read it closely what I said "The difference between Qantas and United is that Qantas DOES NOT deliberately and systematically overbook passengers EVEN - get this - when it can make more profit by doing so because its condition of carriage offers great deal of corporate protection and risk minimization."

[gsengle]

Yes I know you said it. I want some evidence of that, I'd be surprised...


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[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Tommy said:

Again, please read it closely what I said "The difference between Qantas and United is that Qantas DOES NOT deliberately and systematically overbook passengers EVEN - get this - when it can make more profit by doing so because its condition of carriage offers great deal of corporate protection and risk minimization."

But all you've provide is your own personal anecdotal evidence. We're asking you to site Australian law since you stated that Australia has "strict laws against overbooking". 

I respectfully don't agree that the laws as such are any different than those governing United here in the US.

[gsengle]

"We take the utmost care in managing each flight, but on rare occasions a flight may be overbooked and we may need to seek a volunteer to change to another flight. In the unlikely event that there are no volunteers, we may need to ask a passenger to change to another flight. If this happens to you, and you arrived on time for your confirmed flight with all required documentation, we will rebook you on the next available flight on our services at no additional cost to you. Alternatively, if you no longer wish to travel, we will refund your fare."

http://www.qantas.com/travel/airlines/customer-charter/global/en


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[Tommy]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

But all you've provide is your own personal anecdotal evidence. We're asking you to site Australian law since you stated that Australia has "strict laws against overbooking". 

I respectfully don't agree that the laws as such are any different than those governing United here in the US.

Sorry I should say "deliberate and systematic practices of overbooking" 

[carusoam]

 

We have proof that more things are right in the world than wrong...

1) Using a statistical analysis to improve a business makes good economic science.

2) Nature doesn't follow statistics very exactly. There are going to be regular outliers.

3) Knowing all the rules of common carriage around the world is not common knowledge. Even by some pretty smart people.

4) After collecting 1MM miles on People's express, continental and united... I have become pretty good at getting what I want from the airline in the event me or the plane having changed plans.

5) What I want is to get to where I'm going without being beat up or blown up.

 

Speaking of blown up...

6) This unfortunate incidence is being blown out of proportion.

7) There are so many ways to better handle this situation.

8) There is always somebody that can handle it better, under heavier pressure.

9) Do you remember Chandra Leavy.  She had a more dire tragedy.  She was in the news for many months... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_Levy

10) the name Gary Condit may fill the memory gap...

11) What got her off the front page was a more significant story later in September of the same year.

12) Be aware of the news stories around you.  Try to Keep it in perspective.

13) people shouldn't get beat up, or video taped or have their story put on the front page...

14) they shouldn't die from heroin overdoses as a teen either.  Support an anti drug addiction program.

15) If you want to select something to change... pick a charity and support it.  Put an end to breast cancer.

16) try to not lose sight of the whole picture.

 

there is good news...

17) one guy having a terrible day At the airport... is the worst news of the day.... 

 

the tragedy is... 

17.5) This story, as bad as it is/seems, will get replaced by something more tragic or graphic.  I'd rather sit through this a 100 more times than watch some of the other stories that are coming at the ordinary natural pace...

 

18) Try to treat each other with respect while you are discussing the oddities of this situation.

19) MooneySpace doesn't get stronger by throwing insults around.

20) the insider information is greatly appreciated.  How your business handles these type of occurrences.

21) We have a few LEOs on board MS.  Working with people in public places always has the opportunity to have tragic results.

 

22) Know the media doesn't always get it right. They also wield the pen and the film editing equipment for their own benefit.

 

PP thoughts only.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by carusoam

[Tommy]

5 minutes ago, gsengle said:

"We take the utmost care in managing each flight, but on rare occasions a flight may be overbooked and we may need to seek a volunteer to change to another flight. In the unlikely event that there are no volunteers, we may need to ask a passenger to change to another flight. If this happens to you, and you arrived on time for your confirmed flight with all required documentation, we will rebook you on the next available flight on our services at no additional cost to you. Alternatively, if you no longer wish to travel, we will refund your fare."

http://www.qantas.com/travel/airlines/customer-charter/global/en


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Read again:

 

If you are denied boarding due to an overbooking of our flight for which you have a valid Ticket and a confirmed reservation, and you have met our Check-In Deadline and complied with all applicable requirements for travel as set out in these Conditions of Carriage, we will offer you a seat on the next available flight on our services. If this is not acceptable to you, we will provide compensation and any care required by any law which may apply or in accordance with our policy if there is no applicable law. 

And just because the condition of carriage allows it, doesn't mean Qantas will because the competition is fierce. 

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/student-takes-on-airline-and-wins/news-story/054c05bec92f18ec5822ee4d79b07ed4

 

[Tommy]

Honestly, Paul and Greg:

Why is it so hard for you two to grasps the reality that, in Australia, no airline deliberately and systemically overbook passengers but when they accidentally did, they DO NOT BEAT THE PULP OUT OF THEIR PAYING PASSENGERS....

And they can still make a profit. Huge profit in Qantas' case. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-24/qantas-posts-underlying-profit-of-$1.5b,-announces-share-buyback/7779398

[gsengle]

qantas overbooks. So does united. Both will comply with law on compensation. Both will put you up.

So again, you keep changing it to prove Qantas is superior.

I'm not defending united but having flown both domestically and internationally in both the USA and Australia, I can tell you uniteds challenge and the American air travel logistical challenge is at least an order of magnitude larger. There is no comparison.

I'm glad your country is nice in many ways. So is mine.


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[gsxrpilot]

This is my last post on this @carusoam, I promise 

If this passenger had gotten up out of his seat and exited the airplane when asked to by the crew and/or law enforcement, he would have undoubtedly received all the compensation the Ops Agent was authorized to provide. He would still have the opportunity to seek further compensation from customer service, United management and in court. United will offer handsome compensation just the same as any other airline including Qantas. And after living in Australia for several years, I can give plenty of my own anecdotal evidence for passenger complaints against that airline as well. No airline is perfect and neither are passengers.

But there is one hard and fast rule that disagree as you might, will never change. When given an order by a crew member or law enforcement, you will comply or you will be forced to comply. If you don't agree, don't fly.

[gsengle]

Honestly, Paul and Greg:
Why is it so hard for you two to grasps the reality that, in Australia, no airline deliberately and systemically overbook passengers but when they accidentally did, they DO NOT BEAT THE PULP OUT OF THEIR PAYING PASSENGERS....
And they can still make a profit. Huge profit in Qantas' case. 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-24/qantas-posts-underlying-profit-of-$1.5b,-announces-share-buyback/7779398

Do you realize what a huge country this is and how many fly every day and we are focusing on one case of a passenger who resisted lawful police instructions.... it should be easier for Qantas. And great that they do a good job.

Multiple frequent fliers on this forum have told you the system works pretty well, especially given the volume. Why should I take your word on this supposed management philosophy superiority? Do you work for Qantas?


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