carusoam Posted April 19, 2022 Report Posted April 19, 2022 13 hours ago, aviatoreb said: Yeah - as I think about it - ice is in a way already a battery in a sense. It is storing the energy it took to cool it - in modern times its the electric energy of your freezer. So then if you transport it then you have a cheap storage of that energy in form of water ice. Actually now that I think of it - ice used to be an industry before electric freezing (or steam powered freezing), They used to cut up lake ice from cold climates like right here, with saws in olden times and store it in insulated houses throughout the summer. But it was also an export industry - they used to cut up lake ice and put the big blocks on sailing ships and send it as far as to India! Lake ice cutting was still existing in a form up until generally the 1950s since in some sense it was still competitive for convenience to freezing your own up until about then. Back to the topic - ok - ice IS a battery. And it is rechargable - just refreeze the water. (although with economics and convenience it is sometimes easier to go back to the 7-eleven and buy another bag). But here is my question - is there another substance - some other cold or frozen chemical that has more specific heat that would be more efficient for weight and or time utility than water? Just a thought experiment since it is hard to imaging something more efficient than water? Maybe a fraction of carbon of dioxide - dry ice - in the B-cool would make for a longer lasting cool than simply water ice alone? Dry ice at least is still a relatively common easily obtainable stuff. Around here its available at any hunting store since it does last longer than water ice. And if a person is sufficiently motivated they could buy a dry ice freezer/maker for their hangar. https://www.amazon.com/Bel-Art-Frigimat-Cub-Maker-F38874-0000/dp/B0013J1UTM/ref=sr_1_10?crid=28ZSCL6PYMR2P&keywords=dry+ice+machine&qid=1650296323&sprefix=dry+ice+machin%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-10 +1 for finding a chemical with a giant heat of fusion that water has… it’s not just the heat capacity that works the magic… Heat capacity of ice Heat capacity of water Heat of fusion, the energy that gets absorbed to melt the ice… while it stays at 32°F… -1 for dry ice… It can be dangerous in a closed cabin…. Something to remember if transporting medical products packed in icy CO2…. It can sublimate and fill the cabin with a very high percentage of carbon dioxide… Then we would need a CO2 Detector… PP thoughts only, not a physical chemist… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted April 19, 2022 Report Posted April 19, 2022 7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Water already has the highest specific heat. So you won’t find anything better. Supercooled water ice is probably your best bet. Well - it certainly is cheap! On earth. Quote
EricJ Posted April 19, 2022 Report Posted April 19, 2022 4 hours ago, aviatoreb said: Well - it certainly is cheap! On earth. Ice Pirates was an excellent movie. 2 Quote
hypertech Posted April 20, 2022 Report Posted April 20, 2022 I'm a bkool fan so to say but I have an issue with the fan. I opened mine running once and accidentally stuck my finger in the fan. It broke the fan and my finger didn't appreciate it either. If you have one of these, get a Raven R1510 4" vent screen cap. It fits right over the fan and stops that problem. I provided this info to bkool but I have no idea whether they improved the design or not. IMHO, its a defect in the design and its easy to cure. 1 1 Quote
Pinecone Posted May 1, 2022 Report Posted May 1, 2022 The problem with using dry ice is that these systems circulate the water that is in contact with the cold source in an open loop The water is pushed through the radiator, then dumped back into the bath. If you use dry ice, the bath and thus the circulating fluid freezes.. One solution would be to not put only water in the unit, but an antifreeze solution. I would use one of the propylene glycol ones that are used to protect potable water systems. The dry ice sublimates to a gas, and does not dilute the antifreeze solution. And with this setup, you could also use freezer packs interchangeably. Water ice could be used, but then you would have to empty out the antifreeze, as it would be diluted and no longer prevent freezing. Or do like race car driver cooling systems, don't cool the air, cool the person. They circulate the cold water through tubing sewn to a t-shirt and cool just the person. Quote
Will.iam Posted May 1, 2022 Report Posted May 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Pinecone said: The problem with using dry ice is that these systems circulate the water that is in contact with the cold source in an open loop The water is pushed through the radiator, then dumped back into the bath. If you use dry ice, the bath and thus the circulating fluid freezes.. One solution would be to not put only water in the unit, but an antifreeze solution. I would use one of the propylene glycol ones that are used to protect potable water systems. The dry ice sublimates to a gas, and does not dilute the antifreeze solution. And with this setup, you could also use freezer packs interchangeably. Water ice could be used, but then you would have to empty out the antifreeze, as it would be diluted and no longer prevent freezing. Or do like race car driver cooling systems, don't cool the air, cool the person. They circulate the cold water through tubing sewn to a t-shirt and cool just the person. True if the water wasn’t consistently absorbing heat from circulating through the radiator. So the question becomes can the radiator keep up with rate that the dry ice removes the heat. And as dry ice cools the water, only the water around the dry ice freezes and then cracks from the pressure of the sublimation so more water can get in but the surface area of the dry ice is greatly reduced due to the ice insulating it from the rest of the water and the thermal transfer process is slowed down much like snow in a snow bank is still around when all the rest of the snow has melted. Best way to find out would be to test it. If you have too much water the dry ice will not be able to keep it as cold and too little and the water freezes. When we use it in a punch bowl for halloween at the start it makes alot of smoke which is neat visually but taking a long time to cool the punch down. But as people drink the punch by half way it starts turning into a slushy then close to the end when the punch is low you have the consistency of icecream. Quote
carusoam Posted May 2, 2022 Report Posted May 2, 2022 -1 for flying with blocks of frozen CO2 in the cabin… as a normal procedure… Without a CO2 detector… How do you know if the CO2 level isn’t increasing? What level of CO2 is OK? Something to consider also when flying boxes of frozen medical products around… Check to see if there is a CO2 detector available… The nice thing about CO2… you can sense a too high level, and when getting good air, the CO2 in the blood stream doesn’t stick around like CO does… PP thoughts only, ideas to induce additional discussion for safer ways to use CO2… Best regards, -a- Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 2, 2022 Report Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) Need to talk to a rebreather diver, CO2 is extremely deadly, kills quite a few every year, but as you said it clears pretty quickly leaving the death certificate to say drowning, it’s tough to know. high levels of CO2 cause unconsciousness so the mouthpiece drops from your mask and you drown, some will wear full face masks because that stays on and you will regain consciousness from a CO2 “hit” https://www.shearwater.com/monthly-blog-posts/co2-scrubber-divers-rebreather CO2 detectors exist, but aren’t used for diving as high humidity kills them, a CO2 detector that would work in a breathing loop would have had me diving rebreathers, they would be the holy grail for rebreathers as O2 is monitored but CO2 can’t be or couldn’t when I was tech diving anyway But if you leave all the vents open in a Mooney I can’t imagine getting dangerous levels of CO2, but that’s a guess so if carrying medical items or whatever leave the vents open and dress warmly if you have to? CO2 fire extinguishers will kill you in a confined space, Halon will not, so we had big bottles of Halon in the Simulator building. Same reason Army tanks use Halon and I assume it’s why the FAA disallows CO2 extinguishers? Edited May 2, 2022 by A64Pilot 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 2, 2022 Report Posted May 2, 2022 probably a better article to give you a better idea of how much is too much https://divermag.com/pco2-the-dark-matter-of-rebreather-diving/ Quote
Fly Boomer Posted May 2, 2022 Report Posted May 2, 2022 4 hours ago, A64Pilot said: CO2 fire extinguishers will kill you in a confined space, Halon will not, so we had big bottles of Halon in the Simulator building. Halon extinguishes fire by displacing oxygen-containing air. Don't know if it's poisonous, but it can kill you. Used to be used extensively in giant computer rooms. 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 2, 2022 Report Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Halon extinguishes fire by displacing oxygen-containing air. Don't know if it's poisonous, but it can kill you. Used to be used extensively in giant computer rooms. The concentration to completely extinguish a fire with halon leaves you plenty of air to breathe, halon interferes with the fire chemically and prevents combustion, it doesn’t smother the fire or work by displacing O2, CO2 however does, but sure if you tried to breathe pure halon you will suffocate, but Halon will extinguish a fire with well less than 5% of the air being halon, that’s what it’s so effective https://www.orrprotection.com/mcfp/halon-1301-top-6-most-asked-questions https://www.protectionrt.com/halon-toxicity/ It can be discharged inside of a overpressurized sealed armored vehicle, completely extinguish the fire and the occupants stay in the vehicle Edited May 2, 2022 by A64Pilot 1 Quote
EricJ Posted May 2, 2022 Report Posted May 2, 2022 4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said: Halon extinguishes fire by displacing oxygen-containing air. Don't know if it's poisonous, but it can kill you. Used to be used extensively in giant computer rooms. Yup. I worked at a facility long ago that had a very expensive, large computer in a room with a halon system. When it triggered it set off a local alarm with flashing lights, etc., and you had something like thirty seconds to get out of the room before it dropped the door seals and set off the halon. The expectation was that if you were still in there when the halon went off, you'd not be alive afterward. This was about thirty-five years ago. I suspect such a thing wouldn't be allowed today, but, yeah. Halon used to be popular in race cars for plumbed extinguisher systems. I had a car with two bottles in the trunk that would deploy through a nozzle at the fuel cell, a nozzle at the engine, and two nozzles in the footwell. A bunch of people at the time had similar systems. Halon is heavier than air, so I always raised the question, "If you're upside down and on fire, do you deploy the halon?" Fortunately, I never had to use it, upside down or rightside up. They don't use it any more for racing, either. I think mostly because it was determined to be environmentally unacceptable, but the newer stuff seems better in a lot of other ways, too. Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 2, 2022 Report Posted May 2, 2022 The simulator had the flashing lights and the siren too, and we were briefed if they went off to run like hell. but that was misinformed, unless designed by idiots the halon concentration required to completely extinguish a fire leaves plenty of O2 to breathe and Halon isn’t toxic, but it is bad for the ozone layer so it’s not been manufactured for a long time, like old refrigerants, you can still get R12 even though it’s not been made for a long time, just gets more and more expensive. Read the two links I posted earlier. Many people are afraid of Halon, I guess from CO2 as it will kill you. Halon’s best replacement is called Halotron, it’s about half as effective as Halon, but in Halon there are two types, 1211 and 1301, one is a gas and the other a wetting agent, in fire extinguishers it’s common for them to be mixed, in the US Halon fire extinguishers are still sold for Aviation, Aircraft Spruce sells them. Pretty sure it’s the only agent the FAA allows Quote
carusoam Posted May 3, 2022 Report Posted May 3, 2022 The 80s was so memorable… Tape drives… Elevated floors… like drop ceiling tiles, for access to all the cabling below… Magnetic security cards… Electric Sliding doors… Alarm systems that were great for nuisance alarms… And thirty seconds to get out… A 10 meg hard drive was slow, and the size of a kitchen sink… 24/7 operations… The midnight crew were more unique than the day shift guys… where I was… Midnight had a nice shift differential… PP thoughts only… drifting off topic further… Best regards, -a- Quote
Fly Boomer Posted May 3, 2022 Report Posted May 3, 2022 11 minutes ago, carusoam said: And thirty seconds to get out… Certainly memorable for me. 2 Quote
Will.iam Posted May 3, 2022 Report Posted May 3, 2022 Well we had 10lbs dry ice in a 13x12 room with 10 kids and three adults all breathing in there with no ventilation like we have in the mooney and there was still plenty of O2 for everyone to breath. Since CO2 is heavier than air the sublimation gas will sink to the bottom of the cabin and exit out the vents. Will have to check my O2 levels with an oximeter the next time we have a party to see if I’m breathing enough CO2 to displace O2 in my system when standing next to the punch bowl. Only inhaling the smoke directly do you feel any effects which feels like you have been holding your breath for too long and heart rate jumps up too. 1 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted May 3, 2022 Report Posted May 3, 2022 8 hours ago, Will.iam said: Well we had 10lbs dry ice in a 13x12 room with 10 kids and three adults all breathing in there with no ventilation How did the oxygen get in? Quote
Will.iam Posted May 3, 2022 Report Posted May 3, 2022 1 minute ago, Fly Boomer said: How did the oxygen get in? That’s my point only with the oxygen that was in the room to start with or a/c air coming into the vent would have been the only source. The gap at the bottom of the door was probably venting out the CO2 more than letting in air. We were only in there for maybe 30 mins before moving on to another room but didn’t feel any different. Quote
carusoam Posted May 4, 2022 Report Posted May 4, 2022 Keep in mind where the cabin vent is in older Mooneys…. In the center of the baggage area… Probably covered by the B-Kool…. How did the kids like the CO2 show? Was there any shattered roses or banana hammers being used? Fuzzy memories of dry ice experiments… Best regards, -a- Quote
Will.iam Posted May 4, 2022 Report Posted May 4, 2022 1 hour ago, carusoam said: Keep in mind where the cabin vent is in older Mooneys…. In the center of the baggage area… Probably covered by the B-Kool…. How did the kids like the CO2 show? Was there any shattered roses or banana hammers being used? Fuzzy memories of dry ice experiments… Best regards, -a- I think you are confusing dry ice with liquid nitrogen. although one neat experiment is to lay a flat blade of a knife on the dry ice as one side quickly starts to cool compared to the other side it does so at a frequency that is audible and sings (screech) at you until the temp evens out in the blade. Warm it back up and show again. 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 4, 2022 Report Posted May 4, 2022 While I too doubt CO2 would build up enough to hurt you largely because if it’s hot enough to need it, you probably have all the vents open, but if they are closed to keep the AC working, maybe? What would get you is the partial pressure of O2. At altitude the amount of O2 doesn’t decrease it’s the same percent as it is at seal level. But the Partial Pressure of O2 decreases meaning you need to increase the percentage to keep the PPO2 where it’s needed, so at altitude the amount of CO2 that would cause no problem at sea level could at altitude so it might be prudent to monitor pulse ox and go on O2 if needed even if it’s at a lower altitude than normal Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted May 4, 2022 Report Posted May 4, 2022 13 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: While I too doubt CO2 would build up enough to hurt you largely because if it’s hot enough to need it, you probably have all the vents open, but if they are closed to keep the AC working, maybe? What would get you is the partial pressure of O2. At altitude the amount of O2 doesn’t decrease it’s the same percent as it is at seal level. But the Partial Pressure of O2 decreases meaning you need to increase the percentage to keep the PPO2 where it’s needed, so at altitude the amount of CO2 that would cause no problem at sea level could at altitude so it might be prudent to monitor pulse ox and go on O2 if needed even if it’s at a lower altitude than normal Check this out: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf 1 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted May 4, 2022 Report Posted May 4, 2022 3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Check this out: That phrase "death by suffocation" is an attention-getter. 2 Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 4, 2022 Report Posted May 4, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Check this out: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf I believe not to long ago a few people were killed in a chicken processing plant, found it, it was Nitrogen not CO2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Georgia_poultry_plant_accident Edited May 4, 2022 by A64Pilot Quote
carusoam Posted May 4, 2022 Report Posted May 4, 2022 18 hours ago, Will.iam said: I think you are confusing dry ice with liquid nitrogen. although one neat experiment is to lay a flat blade of a knife on the dry ice as one side quickly starts to cool compared to the other side it does so at a frequency that is audible and sings (screech) at you until the temp evens out in the blade. Warm it back up and show again. Thanks for the details… the fuzzy memories are probably 50+ yrs old…. I probably wouldn’t want frozen CO2 or liquid N2 in my cockpit… either way… Water is enough of a hassle… Best regards, -a- Quote
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