Fatality

[Hank]

25 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Yves,

You are correct, night and instrument are 2 separate rating, you could have an instrument rating and not legally land or fly at night.

Clarence

I am SOOO glad that it's not like that here!

Speaking of which, I need to get myself night current for carrying passengers again . . . Should be easy this time of year, it gets dark so freaking early. Maybe one evening after work this week.

[Hector]

I am IFR rated and refuse to go through clouds when there is any risk of encountering ice. Returning from Florida yesterday morning I was VFR (because of the above) and encountered marginal conditions 30 minutes out of my home base. It was 2500 ceilings with 3 miles visibility and daytime. As I was navigating through this shit I was telling my copilot how fortunate we were that I was IFR rated and could keep the sunny side up and find my way in these worsening conditions. I knew things were worsening and I was all set on an emergency RNAV approach if needed. I could not imagine a VFR pilot going through this and not worry... and it was daytime with no mountains. At night in VFR, without 5 miles visibility and 2000 feet ceilings I think the risk is too high... but each have their own personal limits. The poor fellow who crashed probably had the wrong limits set for him. Prayers for families.
Yves

Yves,

Glad you made it back home safely. It was good to see you in Jacksonville. Hope you had a good trip.


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[Cyril Gibb]

1 hour ago, yvesg said:

We have it in Canada. Actually it is not a "VFR night rating", it is a "Night Rating". This is the first thing I did after I got my private many years ago. One of the requirements is to have 10 instrument hours (5 more than private). I believe even someone with Canadian IFR rating cannot land at night unless he has the night rating.

Yves

I think that is incorrect.  An instrument rating in Canada has no day/night restrictions.  The night endorsement  is VFR only.

[201er]

11 hours ago, Piloto said:

Not everybody flies around NYC.

But why should the people who do fly around NYC or similar places have to jump through additional hoops to do so just because someone else decided to fly VFR at night where they shouldn't?

I know what a dark moonless night vfr between layers looks like. Usually I'm IFR in these instances but there was one where I flew by sole reference to instruments VFR to avoid icing areas in the clouds that prevented me from going IFR. This is not a place to be VFR. But it's not a place to be VFR in the day time for a non instrument pilot either. Are we going to demand everyone to have an instrument rating just because a VFR only pilot could get disoriented if he flies between layers VFR?

 

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, 201er said:

But why should the people who do fly around NYC or similar places have to jump through additional hoops to do so just because someone else decided to fly VFR at night where they shouldn't?

I know what a dark moonless night vfr between layers looks like. Usually I'm IFR in these instances but there was one where I flew by sole reference to instruments VFR to avoid icing areas in the clouds that prevented me from going IFR. This is not a place to be VFR. But it's not a place to be VFR in the day time for a non instrument pilot either. Are we going to demand everyone to have an instrument rating just because a VFR only pilot could get disoriented if he flies between layers VFR?

 

Ever fly over the adirondacks on a even a clear but moonless night?  Black hole.

[Steve Dawson]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Yves,

You are correct, night and instrument are 2 separate rating, you could have an instrument rating and not legally land or fly at night.

Clarence

This isn't correct. You can fly at night once you have your IFR even though you haven't your VFR night rating however you still have to do 5 take off and landings within the previous 6 months before you take passengers 

[Steve Dawson]

Very sorry to hear about your client.

[201er]

47 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Ever fly over the adirondacks on a even a clear but moonless night?  Black hole.

Yes. And I would not recommend it to a non-instrument rated pilot. But why shouldn't an instrument rated pilot be able to do it VFR or why shouldn't a VFR only pilot fly around a bright metropolitan area at night. All I'm saying is that just because someone doesn't use a certain kind of flying in their locale isn't a reason to impose restrictions on others using it in a different place in a different way.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, 201er said:

Yes. And I would not recommend it to a non-instrument rated pilot. But why shouldn't an instrument rated pilot be able to do it VFR or why shouldn't a VFR only pilot fly around a bright metropolitan area at night. All I'm saying is that just because someone doesn't use a certain kind of flying in their locale isn't a reason to impose restrictions on others using it in a different place in a different way.

I agree with you / it's all about good training to help good judgement / after all an ifr ticket doesn't mean one should launch into all sorts of weather even it becomes legal to do so.

[yvesg]

1 hour ago, Steve Dawson said:

This isn't correct. You can fly at night once you have your IFR even though you haven't your VFR night rating however you still have to do 5 take off and landings within the previous 6 months before you take passengers 

Steve, I just searched for this in the regs and having difficulty finding direct references to night while IFR however the night rating is clear... look at the last sentence. It refers to the licence: may exercise the privileges of the licence by night.

• SOR/2002-111, s. 2.

Division XII — Night Rating

Rating

401.42 The Minister shall endorse the following permits and licences with a night rating if the applicant for the rating meets the requirements referred to in section 401.06:

• (a) private pilot licence — aeroplane;

• (b) private pilot licence — helicopter;

• (c) pilot licence — balloon; and

• (d) pilot permit — gyroplane.

Privileges

401.43 The holder of a permit or licence that has been endorsed with a night rating may exercise the privileges of the permit or licence by night.

[Steve Dawson]

Yves That doesn't tell you if a person with an IFR endorsement only can't fly at night. It only tells you that you can fly at night with the minimum endorsements as shown in 401.42 then add the night rating. 

Also under the requirements of IFR there isn't anything restricting night flying nor a provision for testing or specific questions on the exam. I know you can use your night instrument training hours towards your IFR training. 

Steve 

[201er]

2 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Same as UK, we have a Night Rating, primarily because landing at night is so different to landing at day.  I always find it amazing we are taught to drive, in nice normal conditions and then once we have our licences we can go and drive in snow, night,  rain, hail, fog, you name it.   People die as a consequence, not good.

You can have an IR, PPL, multi, citation endorsement if you like, but without the night rating, YOU CANNOT fly at night.  

I am a strong believer that training is a good thing and recurrent training is a good thing.  After all, we dont and wont  know everything, so being taught things rather than thinking of it as a "freedom, because there is no a regulation" i see as a good thing and not a bad.  Now when someone tells me i cant stand on a soap box and moan at the top of my voice that someone has made this a regulation then yes i agree that is a freedom we cant lose.  

Andrew

Night training is a required part of the private and commercial test standards. You can skip it and have a night restriction that prevents night flight. But the normal private pilot rating already includes the training.

[yvesg]

6 hours ago, Steve Dawson said:

Yves That doesn't tell you if a person with an IFR endorsement only can't fly at night. It only tells you that you can fly at night with the minimum endorsements as shown in 401.42 then add the night rating. 

Also under the requirements of IFR there isn't anything restricting night flying nor a provision for testing or specific questions on the exam. I know you can use your night instrument training hours towards your IFR training. 

Steve 

I agree with you that the regulation does not say you cannot do this. Just to make sure, I sent an email asking my local TC examiner. He could confirm this.

Regards,

Yves

[yvesg]

12 hours ago, Hector said:

 

Yves,

Glad you made it back home safely. It was good to see you in Jacksonville. Hope you had a good trip.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Was nice seeing you again. We almost stopped at Herlong on the way back but ended up in St. Augustine. 

Thanks again. Hope to see you again in Oshkosh.

Yves

[Steve Dawson]

Hi Yves

I'm curious too. I've never seen it in the requirements to obtain your IFR ticket or any restrictions after you have one. Ask them to quote the actual regulation.

 

Steve

[Jerry 5TJ]

Another clue:  Special VFR at night in USA requires instrument rating, currency and equipment. 

FAR 91.157 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Another clue:  Special VFR at night in USA requires instrument rating, currency and equipment. 

FAR 91.157 

But that's for flight below VFR minimums, so IFR isn't unexpected.

Let's leave night flight in the USA the way it is. It's rather difficult to get an IFR clearance for a flightseeing trip, what's in the ground never lines up with intersections and VORs . . .

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

But that's for flight below VFR minimums, so IFR isn't unexpected.

Let's leave night flight in the USA the way it is. It's rather difficult to get an IFR clearance for a flightseeing trip, what's in the ground never lines up with intersections and VORs . . .

I like that word - never heard it before - flightseeing.

[Hank]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I like that word - never heard it before - flightseeing.

It's a great thing to do on a lazy day off, or to relax after a hectic day at work. Take someone with you as an introduction to GA!

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

It's a great thing to do on a lazy day off, or to relax after a hectic day at work. Take someone with you as an introduction to GA!

...I knew exactly what you meant - and I agree - I just never had the word - thank you.

Flightseeing!

[Guest]

9 hours ago, 201er said:

Night training is a required part of the private and commercial test standards. You can skip it and have a night restriction that prevents night flight. But the normal private pilot rating already includes the training.

Not in all countries.  I only did a night rating last year after years without it and haven't used it since.

Clarence

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Steve Dawson said:

Hi Yves

I'm curious too. I've never seen it in the requirements to obtain your IFR ticket or any restrictions after you have one. Ask them to quote the actual regulation.

 

Steve

Steve and Yves,

Here is the reference to the CAR concerning Instrument rating.  It covers the privilege of a VFR on top rating and has no mention of a night rating.  It was explained to me that while flying under instrument conditions you still have to transition to a visual landing and there is a difference between day and night visual landings.

Division XIV — Instrument Rating

Rating

401.46 (1) The Minister shall endorse the following licences with an instrument rating if the applicant for the rating meets the requirements referred to in section 401.06:

(a) pilot licence — aeroplane; and

(b) pilot licence — helicopter.

(2) Where the Minister has endorsed a licence with an instrument rating, the Minister shall endorse the licence with the group of aircraft in respect of which the privileges may be exercised.

Privileges

401.47 The holder of a licence endorsed with an instrument rating may exercise

(a) the privileges of the licence under IFR in accordance with Part VI, Subpart 2, Division VII in respect of the group of aircraft endorsed on the licence; and

(b) the privileges accorded by a VFR OTT rating.

Period of Validity

401.48 An instrument rating is valid for the period specified on the licence in accordance with the personnel licensing standards, where the period does not exceed 24 months.

Renewal of Instrument Rating

401.49 The Minister shall renew an instrument rating in accordance with the personal licensing standards if the holder of the rating continues to meet the requirements referred to in section 401.06 for the endorsement of the rating.

 

Clarence

[Shadrach]

On 1/1/2017 at 11:06 AM, Piloto said:

Not everybody flies around NYC. Try flying over the Andes, Sierra Nevada or the Amazons at night with no GPS and no moon. And you will understand why IFR at night is advisable or required. The shadow of a mountain against a lighted city can be mistaken for a lake and you end up crashing into it. Approaching Quito at night I got the impression of a lake in the middle of the city but it was actually a mountain in between. By luck I remembered that there were no lakes in Quito.

Then there is the other issue that at night you do not see the clouds so you could be in the clouds without knowing it. This could be fatal when flying in the vicinity of mountains or raising terrain. Or icing conditions.

José

José,

I have flown on dark, moonless, overcast nights over water.  While I agree that there can be little outside reference, I don't think that night flying need be relegated to IFR only. CMost night flights offer plenty of outside reference.  Fully half of my training was done at night. Night flying has additional risks for sure, most pilots are able to manage them. Those that can't would likely not be saved by regulation. 

Sad incident indeed... I cannot imagine how he felt knowing in the last moments that he was taking out someone else's children. Awful...

[chrisk]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

But that's for flight below VFR minimums, so IFR isn't unexpected.

Let's leave night flight in the USA the way it is. It's rather difficult to get an IFR clearance for a flightseeing trip, what's in the ground never lines up with intersections and VORs . . .

Sort of, since your only typically below minimums because of the airspace classification.   In other words, you could have legal cloud clearance in class G or B, but not C, D, or E.   In these cases, you call the controller of the airspace and ask for  Special VFR.    Most pilots would be surprised, but you can legally fly in really low minimums at night.  In short, if your doing take offs and landings at night you could be legal with 1+ miles of visibility and clear of clouds. 

Section 91.155,  B (2) Airplane, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft. If the visibility is less than 3 statute miles but not less than 1 statute mile during night hours and you are operating in an airport traffic pattern within 1/2 mile of the runway, you may operate an airplane, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft clear of clouds.

 

 

 

[Steve Dawson]

Can you show me where in the CAR that it states that you can't fly at night if IFR or that you have to have the night endorsement? 

As far as the visual reference In Canada with an IFR rating you can depart with 1/2 mile vis and land at a minimum of 1/2 mile and 200' if your plane's equipment properly or even lower if properly equipped aircraft and trained. Then from takeoff to landing you can be in IMC the complete distance between. 

My apologies to Amillet for my contribution to the thread drift.