The Mooney 305 Rocket Conversion for Commuting?

[Samurai Husky]

Just now, gsengle said:

Don't confuse FIKI with having TKS...

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Yea, i guess i worded that wrong; TKS is a technology, FIKI is just a certification. 

[gsengle]

Yes but a lot of TKS birds are not FIKI certified, because they don't have appropriate levels of redundancy or coverage in the installation.... And certain models can't be FIKI. Rockets I don't believe are ever FIKI. Ovations are... Dual pumps dual alternators, dual batteries etc.

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[Samurai Husky]

15 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Sam check your Maint. Numbers on the gear.  There is some related to the no back spring clutch.  And one or two people stung by the Plessey system.  The value you are quoting being similar to a chute repack would be annoying at a high level.

Go O1. Annual OPs check on the gear.  No additional Maint that I'm aware of.  One of these days my spring will be swapped out.

Go IO550!

Best regards,

-a-

oh thats good; I thought it was like $1500 per re-rig and that it should be done every annual or as needed. Time to update the spreadsheet; 

Though I would still do the O2 of the O1... because I like shiny glass. 

[carusoam]

FIKI has a bunch of important extra parts installed that the ordinary TKS doesn't have.  

GS covered this above with great detail.  We must have been typing at the same time.

Best regards,

-a-

[Samurai Husky]

Just now, gsengle said:

 

Yes but a lot of TKS birds are not FIKI certified, because they don't have appropriate levels of redundancy or coverage in the installation.... And certain models can't be FIKI. Rockets I don't believe are ever FIKI. Ovations are... Dual pumps dual alternators, dual batteries etc.

 

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yep; I was trying to find the actual requirements. Maybe it wasnt a rocket with FIKI it was probably just TKS. 

[gsengle]

Basically any Cirrus before 2008 isn't FIKI. Any cirrus that new is $$$. My 1996 Ovation is FIKI... This article was interesting...

http://www.maxtrescott.com/max_trescott_on_general_a/2009/01/fikione-more-reason-to-consider-a-cirrus-sr22t.html

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[Samurai Husky]

Just now, gsengle said:

Basically any Cirrus before 2008 isn't FIKI. Any cirrus that new is $$$. My 1996 Ovation is FIKI... This article was interesting...

http://www.maxtrescott.com/max_trescott_on_general_a/2009/01/fikione-more-reason-to-consider-a-cirrus-sr22t.html

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LOL,. you mean the one written by my CFI

 

[carusoam]

Thought that name rang a bell...

-a-

[gsengle]

In summary, an early Ovation or a Bravo with FIKI is as close as you get to a personal airliner, and a LOT of plane for the money.

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[Godfather]

I've enjoyed watching Samurai progress in the training process. However, sometimes I wonder if some individuals are missing a step along the way... learn-> ___->teach... 

[Yooper Rocketman]

8 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

Yes but a lot of TKS birds are not FIKI certified, because they don't have appropriate levels of redundancy or coverage in the installation.... And certain models can't be FIKI. Rockets I don't believe are ever FIKI. Ovations are... Dual pumps dual alternators, dual batteries etc.

 

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There have been several 252's converted to Rockets, and those CAN have FIKI TKS systems.  Never heard of the dual batteries, but Rockets have two batteries anyway.  The only differences between the A36 we had that was FIKI and the one that wasn't was the standby alternator and the second pump.

I have have close to 2k hours in TKS equipped birds, with most of those hours in non-FIKI ones.  I had a deice failure (in icing too) in the FIKI A-36 a couple years ago and it was a component outside of the FIKI redundancy.  It's got one of the pumps out right now for overhaul because it failed too (during another icing encounter).  By the time I figured out the system wasn't pumping, I was out of the icing.  The FIKI makes you "LEGAL", but my experience doesn't show it's been any safer.

Tom

[gsengle]

Yep FIKI doesn't make you tremendously safer, but redundancy does enhance safety especially when in IMC.

But the point relevant to this thread is that without FIKI, your legal dispatch rate in the Northwest goes way down, and this thread is about commuting.

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[aviatoreb]

Sam, there is no FIKI option on a rocket.  There are a few with the no-FIKI tks.  Also, it has been a long time since I have seen any rocket listed for 200k or more.

Also, I am not sure if a lot of your numbers and assumptions in general are correct.

[whiskytango]

1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

There have been several 252's converted to Rockets, and those CAN have FIKI TKS systems.  Never heard of the dual batteries, but Rockets have two batteries anyway.  The only differences between the A36 we had that was FIKI and the one that wasn't was the standby alternator and the second pump.

I have have close to 2k hours in TKS equipped birds, with most of those hours in non-FIKI ones.  I had a deice failure (in icing too) in the FIKI A-36 a couple years ago and it was a component outside of the FIKI redundancy.  It's got one of the pumps out right now for overhaul because it failed too (during another icing encounter).  By the time I figured out the system wasn't pumping, I was out of the icing.  The FIKI makes you "LEGAL", but my experience doesn't show it's been any safer.

Tom

At the risk of going somewhat off-topic, I would like to know if anyone who has FIKI or inadvertent TKS has ever quantified how much additional use they get from their plane during a typical year compared with no TKS?  In particular I am thinking of a mission that involves regular flights from the southeast US to the northeast.  I know that is a difficult question to answer but I am curious if anyone has ever tried.

[Samurai Husky]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Sam, there is no FIKI option on a rocket.  There are a few with the no-FIKI tks.  Also, it has been a long time since I have seen any rocket listed for 200k or more.

Also, I am not sure if a lot of your numbers and assumptions in general are correct.

Then Whats this?

https://www.caviceprotection.com/products-services/ice-protection-systems/mooney-fiki

 

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Samurai Husky said:

Then Whats this?

https://www.caviceprotection.com/products-services/ice-protection-systems/mooney-fiki

 

Not available for the rocket.

[carusoam]

One way to tell if a system is FIKI or not (from the outside/no log books). Look for the ice light that illuminates the leading edge of the wing.  From the inside, the second pump is important.

The ice light helps the pilot identify the system is working as expected at night.

Based on fuzzy memories, I could be completely incorrect....

Best regards,

-a-

[geoffb]

What's the limitation on a Rocket conversion?  It's still an M20K.  Is there a space issue?

[N9453V]

I've frequently commuted between the Seattle area and the SF Bay Area, often with a fuel stop at EUG.

I would not recommend a new private pilot purchase an aircraft with the expectation to be able to use it for commuting along this route. I've dealt with ice along this route from September through May. An instrument rating and FIKI are both essential for dispatch reliability. There's really 2 ways to do it... the most direct is on V23 over FJS (at or above 11k south, 10k north) but you can deal with icing there most of the year and severe turbulence is possible in the mountains, the other is V27 along the coast (at or above 7k south, 8k north)... I usually fly this route, it's longer, but the lower MEA's tend to keep you free of ice, but be aware that most of the airports around that route are coastal airports and if you have to divert, you may have to deal with high winds and fog (I've landed at CEC with almost 50 knots on the nose at short final and also seen it below ILS mins).

The weather in the bay area is usually pretty benign, but EUG to STS is NOT a good route for a low time private pilot to have an expectation to fly regularly.

-Andrew

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

One way to tell if a system is FIKI or not (from the outside/no log books). Look for the ice light that illuminates the leading edge of the wing.  From the inside, the second pump is important.

The ice light helps the pilot identify the system is working as expected at night.

Based on fuzzy memories, I could be completely incorrect....

Best regards,

-a-

I have an ice light.

[aviatoreb]

As I understand it, the FIKI version requires two alternators for backup power, and it comes with two pumps.  Two alternators were not available on the 231 so FIKI is only available on the 252, but having a 252 does not guarantee that it will have been the two pump fiki version.  But also, as I understand it, it is the entire installation, engine combo that is in the paper work that makes it a fiki system.  The paper work is everything when callung a system fiki and excercising the rights that go with that.  So as I understand it, even if you had a fiki install of the tks in your 252, but then got the rocket stc after that, it will no longer be a fiki system even though you have two pumps.  In part because now you do not have two alternators.  But even if you get a second backup alternator (doesnt gami make some kind of second alternator that would fit the accessories port on the tsio520nb?) it still would not be fiki anymore since the engine and the alternators would not be as specified in the cav-aero fiki tks paperwork.  So the fiki privledge  is nul and void in a rocket if you had it in the first place.

Regulations aside, the single pump tks has the same panel coverage and flow rates as the dual  pump fiki system.  Also, anthony I seem to have a night light.  And by the way, in a rocket you have two big batteries which serves pretty well as backup power.

I for one don't need fiki.  I don't want to fly in ice.  I just don't want to feel cornered just in case.  I just want an out if I ever screw up which I duly try not to. I do not fly into ice knowing there is ice, and I wouldn't either in a fiki mooney  - I would want at least a twin but probably a turbine if I wanted to fly often into ice.  No fiki tks gives me a bit of peace of mind just in case just as would fiki.  

[chrisk]

23 hours ago, swt94025 said:

Greg,

I was thinking of leaving the plane in the hangar during those times...  I don't think I have the risk tolerance for icing conditions even with the extra hardware.  I am asking around in Eugene to get a better idea of exactly how long that interval is.  The answer to that question might shut down the whole idea!

 

Something you may not understand yet.  Icing conditions occur roughly -10 to +10 Celsius, an in visible moisture (like a cloud).  That 14 to 50 degrees in Fahrenheit.  Air roughly cools at 2 degrees Celsius for every 1000 feet of altitude.  --so when you have a nice 60 degree day and take off and climb 5000 feet to climb over an obstacle (or to an IFR route), you in 5C air.  If your in the clouds at that level, you stand a fair chance of getting ice.

All that said, I have not flown in the north west.  I'm not sure of the conditions, but it has a reputation for being more challenging.

[jkhirsch]

I am always astounded by how much advice is based on everyone's assumptions of the financial situation.

That's the first question in almost every binary tree, and continues to iterate throughout as more information is revealed.

There's no reason that he cannot buy a FIKI Mooney and do his training in it, including cross countries along his prescribed commute and alternates.

At that point the only limit on his ability to start making the commute is his personal time, and his ability to learn and fly the airplane.

I guess I am guilty of assuming that people can make rational decisions based on a given set of objective inputs--without others hedging their personal beliefs on them.

Edited July 13, 2016 by jkhirsch

[gsengle]

I am always astounded by how much advice is based on everyone's assumptions of the financial situation.

That's the first question in almost every binary tree, and continues to iterate throughout as more information is revealed.

There's no reason that he cannot buy a FIKI Mooney and do his training in it, including cross countries along his prescribed commute and alternates.

At that point the only limit on his ability to start making the commute is his personal time, and his ability to learn and fly the airplane.

I guess I am guilty of assuming that people can make rational decisions based on a given set of objective inputs--without others hedging their personal beliefs on them.

Disagree. My main objections were 1) pilot experience (earned over a long time regardless of money) and 2) trying to commute reliably anywhere with real weather in a piston single, I don't care if it's a new acclaim or an older bird with TKS.

So unless you're saying he could just buy a Citation or Pilatus, and hire a pro pilot full time companion, we are staying in the owner piloted Mooney realm, and the money angle is moot.

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[N9453V]

23 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Disagree. My main objections were 1) pilot experience (earned over a long time regardless of money) and 2) trying to commute reliably anywhere with real weather in a piston single, I don't care if it's a new acclaim or an older bird with TKS.

So unless you're saying he could just buy a Citation or Pilatus, and hire a pro pilot full time companion, we are staying in the owner piloted Mooney realm, and the money angle is moot.

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Yep, a FIKI airplane, an instrument rating and 500+ hours of experience can get you close, but if you need airline-level dispatch reliability in that environment, you need turbines and a professional pilot.

-Andrew