IFR Training - PIC

[dfgreene61]

I'm considering using the company PIC to provide accelerated IFR training. 
Do any of you Mooniacs have experience with them. 
Their site is below.

http://www.iflyifr.com

 

 

[carusoam]

I used American Flyers a few years ago, if that helps...

http://www.americanflyers.net

I used their 10day program and spread it out over a month.  It was interesting to use various instructors in different planes.  Things that would have been detrimental to the learning experience in initial training.

I would gladly go back, but would use my plane, the second time around...

Then look into MAPA's training once you have the IR.  It is like the grad school of the IR for you and your specific Mooney.

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

Please consider getting a Mooney Specific CFII to do your instrument work with in your plane from the get go. You will be miles ahead over a generic mill type school with someone who can really teach you the systems of your plane and your plane's IFR performance envelope. Doug Bodine is over in the Dakota's, has real world experience in a B2 to supplement his Mooney time. If you can dedicate the 10 days with a school, you can certainly knock it out with a Mooney Instructor. Just get ready to really learn, as this will be the most important rating you will get. It will take you from knowing how to fly a plane to being one with the plane. Don Kaye also has been known to freeze his butt off in March training up there I hear....

[steingar]

I've heard nothing but good things about PIC.  Mooneys aren't magic, they fly just like airplanes.

[Bravoman]

 I used PIC years ago. It was intense, and I think the best way to knock out the training.  My instructor was an Air Force Academy  grad, and a two-time  Vietnam War distinguished flying Cross recipient.  He was a true task master, and it was an extremely intense 10 days. I felt that I was very prepared to take the practical and check ride  after the 10 days.  Of course, the ticket is a license to learn, but I can't recommend the program highly enough. 

Regards, Frank

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

I've heard nothing but good things about PIC.  Mooneys aren't magic, they fly just like airplanes.

Once you know what power settings you need, I agree. You should be able to figure these out easy enough on your own before starting IFR training.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

I've heard nothing but good things about PIC.  Mooneys aren't magic, they fly just like airplanes.

Shhhh! Never say that in a type-specific group. Sacrelige!

[kortopates]

No doubt that one can earn there Instrument Rating in an accelerated fashion over an intense 10 days or so devoted to developing the fundamental skills to fly via instruments and partial panel. The downside to accelerated training is the minimal time if any devoted to aeronautical decision making and weather. Their is no other rating where ADM and knowledge of weather is more vital. A student that does the rating on a slower but consistent training schedule is more likely to see lots of different weather and spend much more time discussing the weather risks and means to mitigate them with their instructor and thus be far more advanced in their ADM, weather interpretation and risk analysis skills than the accelerated program graduate. Perhaps someone that is savvy enough to realize this is going to be extra cautious after getting their rating in 2 weeks with a large amount of time in the simulator and likely not a bit of IMC. But in actuality IMO accelerated training is most attractive to busy successful people that are the most self confident to a flaw and most likely to push the envelope right after they get their ticket.

Maybe some of you remember such a Mooney pilot from a few years  ago. A very successful business man got his rating through PIC in time to travel to a Wedding in Jackson Hole shortly thereafter. Although his instructor advised that was a very serious trip for someone with so little experience; especially in the mountains. Initially he had the good sense to fly commercially back home when a winter storm was passing through, but when his commercial flight was cancelled for a maintenance issue his plan B to get back to work on time was to depart Jackson Hole in his J model in a snow storm with 3 young sons on aboard. I forget how long it took them to find the downed plane but it was quite awhile. But after reading the NTSB report and going through all the witness files etc it was clear this guy had learned very little about flight planning and weather hazards and perhaps too much ego blinded him to his and his planes limitations. Sadly his sons paid the price.

Certainly not every PIC graduate is going to be so foolish, and that was not my point. But given this guy was very bright, I've thought if he had the opportunity to learn more about weather and especially develop better ADM skills over time with an instructor that he may have acted more wisely than he did. But we'll never know except that he had very little opportunity to learn any of that in such an intense training environment dedicated entirely to passing the exam without room for anything more.

Edited March 10, 2016 by kortopates

[flyboy0681]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

 A student that does the rating on a slower but consistent training schedule is more likely to see lots of different weather and spend much more time discussing the weather risks and means to mitigate them with their instructor and thus be far more advanced in their ADM, weather interpretation and risk analysis skills than the accelerated program graduate.

Very much true. For several reasons my training took over a year to complete and during that time my instructor and I saw all kinds of weather. By the time I took my check ride I had logged a little over 3 hours of actual IMC and numerous approaches. One trip I remember was for my long cross country and it was up to Williston Florida where my instructor and I attended the monthly Mooney Luncheon and I met Mike Elliott. On the way back we flew through heavy rain which didn't concern my CFI but made me very anxious, mostly due to the deafening noise. Before landing at my base airport we flew an ILS approach into Palm Beach, breaking out at 600 feet and then doing the published missed, again in IMC. 

I think that practical experience was priceless, even to this day.

 

[dfgreene61]

Thanks for all the replies folks.  I appreciate the encouragement and words of caution.  Since I moved to KIDA my ability to take trips VFR has been reduced quite a bit.  They have lower cloud bases here than what I'm used to back in Utah.  There have been plenty of days this winter when I could have taken trips if only I could have legally taken off and flown through a thin low layer of clouds to VFR conditions above and destinations with no clouds (Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs) at all.

[carusoam]

Paul's point is on the money.

I liked the 10 day program because my other work load wasn't allowing it to happen any other way.  10 days in the dark, with NJ December weather.  At least you are likely to get 10 days that have IMC, lots of wind, and a side helping of ice with that.

Get the written out of the way first.  It has little to do with the 10 days of flying. It is similar to reading government law books that were written in 1970 and printed in 1985.

When you are successful at completing this program (you will be) remember Paul's point.

Hang out here and discuss the vagaries of weather, what the best app is for knowing recently reported cloud tops. Find the guy that can best explain Skew-T charts.

Know that Mooneys run out of magic.  FIKI ice protection has it's limitations. Thunderstorms have taken down some pretty ept (opposite of inept) aviators before us.  Even a well educated pilot can be surprised by the effects of Density Altitude.

Briefly: Rush to get started. Rush to get through the written. Rush through the ten days if you have to. Don't rush into mountains, thunderstorms, and freezing IMC. 

Flying in the system is a blast.  Flying in IMC is really cool. Knowing that you can return after a weekend away is a major stress reliever.

Remember: All the weather information that you have available on your cell phone, won't make you popular at a party or at a ball game.  People will look at you bug-eyed when you show them storm cells are approaching at 50mph, avg. hail size, with cloud tops above 30k'.

When do you start?

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

And no matter how you get the ticket it is a license to learn.  The ten day program worked great for me as I had a really unique and talented instructor, and I didn't like the drawn out approach of having to depend on an instructor being able to work me in once or twice a week, and using half the time refreshing what was learned the last time. For me the intensive training and getting the check ride out of the way and slowly working in to the system with conservative personal minimums was the way to go. You only realize in retrospect how little you knew about instrument flight and being an instrument pilot when you were handed that freshly printed ticket. 

 

Regards, Frank

[dfswing2]

I just passed the IFR check ride yesterday and feel that the 6 months I took to obtain the rating was beneficial for me.  I saw much change in weather and I also had time for lessons learned to sink in.  I considered the PIC method but I don't believe it was right for me.  Maybe it was my age (59) but it's drinking from a fire hose!  I don't believe I would have developed the habits that I had time to review each week and change to adapt good flying habits with the new things that I learned.  It is hard; they don't give it away for a good reason.  Good luck!

[Bob_Belville]

I added my IR back in the '70s but I recall taking a CFII on real business trips in IMC a couple of times. I started in a C172 but bought a Mooney shortly after starting training and finished in it. I had logged 30 hrs hood time and 5 hour actual when I took the check ride. It was 6 months from start to finish. That IR permitted me to fly the Mooney about 250 hours per year for 11 years.  

[1964-M20E]

The accelerated programs are hot fast and maybe not cheap but they do get you to your ticket quickly.

I did my own with a non Mooney specific CFII it took me right at 6 months flying once a week on average hoping the overcast would not clear up before we got into the air.  Real IMC I felt was best but with the hood you can to minimums and get the full feel of the approach.  I chose non towered airports and flew the full approach including the course reversal.

However, I did unofficially start my IFR training months before by getting the approach plates and studying them and the nomenclature on them.  I would take the plates up in the air and tune in the frequencies and fly the approaches at non towered airports just to get a sense of the turns and descents while in VMC.

 

MY point is start learning the vocabulary and start flying the approaches on a good sunny day then when you "officially" start your training you have a clue about what is going on.

[Jerry 5TJ]

What's the rush?  If you're in a hurry to make trips, take a CFII with you.  For the premium that a 10 day course costs you can buy a couple dozen extra hours of dual. You'll gain weather and cross-country experience that won't fit into a two-week curriculum . 

[flyboy0681]

59 minutes ago, dfswing2 said:

 Maybe it was my age (59) but it's drinking from a fire hose!  I don't believe I would have developed the habits that I had time to review each week and change to adapt good flying habits with the new things that I learned.  It is hard; they don't give it away for a good reason.  Good luck!

I think you hit upon it. I earned mine in my mid 50's and it was a lot to absorb, especially when you consider the business and family responsibilities that went on at the same time. If I did it in the 1980's when I was in my 20's, I would have had it done in a couple of months.

[carusoam]

All the training is similar to getting a college degree.  Highly concentrated learning.

All of the experience builds starting after the graduation...

Traveling with a Mooney specific CFII on board is a super great idea.

Part of my transition training included delivering the O from TX to NJ.  It was February, two months after the IR. Lots of IMC accross the country.  Breaking the trip into two to three hour segments is an ideal way to add cognitive breaks into the plan.

- I learned that ATC has a few tactics to work you into the system like vectoring you in the opposite direction than what you want to go.  In IMC you don't get a feeling for how far out of the way you are actually traveling.  That is a good time to test your Carson's speed configuration.

- I learned that things can build up quickly working against you.  We stopped for fuel at an airport that had a runway closed for maintenance. While we were fueling and getting lunch, a commercial jet rejected T/O on the remaining runway and went deep into the arresting materials at the end.  The airport closed for the night.

- Departing fresh the next morning, we got our final dose of IMC including learning how quickly clear ice builds up on the wing during an approach procedure.  Wish I had a picture of the tiny horizontal icicle pointing straight forward projecting from the spinner.

Life is long, gather and build experience at a measured pace.  Use large personal minimums and refine them over time.

It can be a real challenge balancing aviation decision making, vs. time vs. costs.  Don't make a safety error pushing to save time or money.  The costs will be more time and money than you save...

This is from aged and fuzzy memories of my my personal experience.  Everyone's will be different...

Best regards,

-a-

[Oldguy]

8 hours ago, dfswing2 said:

I just passed the IFR check ride yesterday and feel that the 6 months I took to obtain the rating was beneficial for me.  I saw much change in weather and I also had time for lessons learned to sink in.  I considered the PIC method but I don't believe it was right for me.  Maybe it was my age (59) but it's drinking from a fire hose!  I don't believe I would have developed the habits that I had time to review each week and change to adapt good flying habits with the new things that I learned.  It is hard; they don't give it away for a good reason.  Good luck!

 

7 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

I think you hit upon it. I earned mine in my mid 50's and it was a lot to absorb, especially when you consider the business and family responsibilities that went on at the same time. If I did it in the 1980's when I was in my 20's, I would have had it done in a couple of months.

I, too, am one of those >50 YO IR trainees. Another friend of mine (also 50+) did the 10 day process and was almost ready at the end of the time, but not quite. His schedule prevented him from staying the last couple of needed days and he has yet (4 months later) to finish due to schedule conflicts. Mine took about 8 months to complete on my schedule and afterwards, I felt like I was ready to dip my toe into the water.

Personal minimums are great. Set them and write them down. After some experience flying to them, review and adjust if appropriate.

Soft IMC is wonderful for fresh IR pilots. A semi-thick layer or two of clouds that build up some sweat helps gain confidence.

Fly with another IR pilot if possible. My pilot buddy flies an '82 J, so it makes flying IMC together much less work. Just riding with another IR pilot is educational as well.

As said numerous times above, it is a license to learn.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Oldguy said:

Soft IMC is wonderful for fresh IR pilots. A semi-thick layer or two of clouds that build up some sweat helps gain confidence.

 

One thing that I always do when flying in solid IMC for an extended period of time is disengage the A/P and just hand fly it.

[carl]

I used American Flyers a few years ago, if that helps...

http://www.americanflyers.net

I used their 10day program and spread it out over a month.  It was interesting to use various instructors in different planes.  Things that would have been detrimental to the learning experience in initial training.

I would gladly go back, but would use my plane, the second time around...

Then look into MAPA's training once you have the IR.  It is like the grad school of the IR for you and your specific Mooney.

 

a , 

I would like to use my plane too, but i don't have anything in it IFR instrument wise. (except it is certified IFR, Im pulling out the ADF and Loran soon)

What would you suggest as the minimum IFR instruments needed to obtain the rating ?

 

Carl

 

[kortopates]

I am sure your plane has the required instruments for IFR. I think the question is concerning navigation equipment. Personally these days I can imagine not having a WAAS GPS. Without it you are severely limited. Otherwise IMO I would just stick to climbing and descending through thin layers with VFR ceilings. Additionally with how easy it is to have wx in the cockpit with an iPad and ADS-B there is really no excuse not to have it. Then it just boils down to how you want to get there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

If you are Adding only one box...  Like a WAAS GPS, VOR, and ILS receiver, would be a strong solution....

Garmin, Avidyne and BK are competing strongly for your business.  Used G430Ws are in the market and providing some additional competition.

This would cover most of the nonprecision and precision approaches of the modern ATC system.

retaining a back-up VOR/ILS system would be good for the other things that can happen.

installing a less than WAAS capable GPS is less and less appealing as the days go by...

Check with your local CFII and instrument shop for additional details...Ask them what type of procedures they think you should be capable of using....

I did mostly VOR, ILS and GPS based approaches, 5 years ago. Additional equipment we used were ADF, DME and a panel mounted timer for support to those procedures.  ADF and DME arcs were an extra side dish to the program...

Non-precision approaches are everywhere...

Precision approaches are less available, but give really good guidance down close to the ground.  Really important when the weather has turned for the worse and you still need to land.

Best regards,

-a-

[Yooper Rocketman]

There are things a local CFII can teach you that a concentrated school can not.  I won't bash those schools; use them if that option is the only one that works.  But make sure you get some quality time with a local CFII or well experienced local IFR rated pilot before launching into nasty or "at minimums" weather that probably has some nuances to your area you won't learn in those schools.

[dfgreene61]

62G has an Aspen PFD, Garmin 750, ADS-B, GPSS to an AP with alt hold and second king radio/nav.  It will be nice to start getting more bang for the buck from my panel.  I have hundreds of hours flying VFR in the rockies.  Without FIKI and a turbo I consider my 201 to be limited when it comes to the missions I'd even consider tackling in my area.  Flying to the Teton valley in IMC for example is something I'd never consider in my plane.  Accelerated training is attractive to me for a few reasons.  I have a business to run that limits my time.  KIDA doesn't have many options when it comes to training.  I had good results with accelerated training in the Navy.