Switching oil?

[Cwalsh7997]

Hey guys currently on my M20F I use 15w50, I hange the oil and filter every 25 hours and I'm currently seeing oil burn of 1qt every 5-6 tach hours and as it gets closer to 25 I'm seeing 1qt every like 2/3 hours. I was wondering if i were to switch to a different oil what effect that would have and is that a good idea?

[carusoam]

Since normal oil burn rates are closer to 1 qt every 10 hours.  Do you want to mention things like the hours on the engine or other wear related data?  Cylinder compression info?

Are there oil spots on the ground?

Is there oil on the exhaust pipe? 

Any challenges with oil burning on or fowling the spark plugs?

Is it leaking out of the engine or is it burning in the cylinders?

Is the oil in the engine really dark?

Thoughts of a PP that come to mind,

-a-

[PTK]

Using multiviscocity oil can actually lower oil consumption. Oil departs our engines primarily through blow by from the piston rings and leaks. So barring any major and obvious leaks, need to look closely at cylinders and rings.

I echo Anthony's questions. I would also ask how quickly does the oil become dark after an oil change? and what level do you fill oil to? 

 

[Bob_Belville]

I like AeroShell W100 (straight 50 weight) which I would think would be a good choice in Florida. I would not be too concerned about 1 qt per 5 hours... what level do you add to? Many folks find that consumption is much higher when the level is over 6.5.

good food for thought.

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182909-1.html

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_52_thinking_about_oil_changes_196730-1.html

[Cwalsh7997]

Would you recommend I switch to w100?

[Raptor05121]

As a Florida native, 99% of the pilots I talk to say Florida planes are best off using Aeroshell 100 year round unless you fly up north. Its what I plan on doing. Either standard 100 w/ CamGuard or the Plus 100

[KSMooniac]

Switch to A/S 100 and your consumption will very likely decrease.  If you fill over ~6 qts you'll probably blow out the extra pretty quickly too.  I'd recommend A/S 100 + Camguard as it has the best additive and corrosion prevention package compared to A/S 100+ or 15W-50.

[Bob_Belville]

I use AS W100 and I add CamGuard for the reasons Mike Busch outlines. My plane might sit for several weeks between flights and I worry about cam corrosion. I had a prop strike a couple of years ago and the mandatory engine tear down revealed worn cam and lifters. Busch says a straight mineral oil, like AS W100, clings to interior metal better than synthetic or blends. The CamGuard hopefully addresses the same issue. If a plane is flying several hundred hours per year Busch is less concerned about the oil type. I have a hangar and engine heater. I do not have to do cold starts which would be a reason to use a multigrade. 

[Guest]

Here's what RAM Aircraft says about oil.  Note they don't like semi-synthetic like 15W50.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Oil-Recommendations.htm

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

Here's what RAM Aircraft says about oil.  Note they don't like semi-synthetic like 15W50.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Oil-Recommendations.htm

Clarence

Those recommendations seem to be the same as Savvy/Busch.

[Guitarmaster]

I switched from aeroshell w100 to Phillips 20/50 XC.

My oil consumption went from about a quart every 10 hours to about half a quart every 15 hours. Clearly the motor likes the new oil!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[M20F]

My favorite thread on the topic, enjoy your particular brand of Kool-Aide!

http://blog.aopa.org/opinionleaders/2014/07/02/what-makes-an-engine-airworthy/

 

[StinkBug]

On 1/26/2016 at 8:59 AM, Bob_Belville said:

what level do you add to? Many folks find that consumption is much higher when the level is over 6.5.

good food for thought.

This could have a great effect on so called consumption. If I fill mine over 7 it blows the excess out the breather. It's not really consumption, it's just getting rid of it. Since I figured that out and only fill to 7 I only actually consume a quart every 20 hours (which I'm told is very good). When I filled to 8 it was one every 3-5 hours because that's how long it took to blow that extra quart out the breather. Omitting the extra quart not only made oil changes a couple bucks cheaper, saved me the money of all those wasted top off quarts, it also helps keep the belly a lot cleaner.

 

This may not be your issue at all, but worth noting.

[DrBill]

Im just coming out of the shop after a major OH. found bad cam and lifter at annual.  was using A/S W100,  going to keep same and add Camguard.

I feel problem was started before I bought plane in 2011 with few hrs flown in 2010-2011 (<10).  Never a perf problem just showed up in filter at annual in Nov. although I only flew 40 hrs in last year.

Looking forward to 1st flight.

Bill

 

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, DrBill said:

Im just coming out of the shop after a major OH. found bad cam and lifter at annual.  was using A/S W100,  going to keep same and add Camguard.

I feel problem was started before I bought plane in 2011 with few hrs flown in 2010-2011 (<10).  Never a perf problem just showed up in filter at annual in Nov. although I only flew 40 hrs in last year.

Looking forward to 1st flight.

Bill

 

Bill, keep us posted with pireps. Triad do the overhaul?

[DrBill]

YES Triad did OH to engine and Prop.  Needed new governor (no surprise) and put all new hoses and O/H of oil cooler.   Triad had everything done right. Case inspected, rods checked, new cylinders and pistons, new cam, new fuel injection system, new oil pump.

Started right up on initial start, now waiting for ground to dry in front of hangar so I don't get stuck in mud.  2 hr breakin flight next.

not cheap but now I have better than new engine (NO ADs on my 50 yr old crank !!!).

Bill

 

[Bob - S50]

19 hours ago, DrBill said:

YES Triad did OH to engine and Prop.  Needed new governor (no surprise) and put all new hoses and O/H of oil cooler.   Triad had everything done right. Case inspected, rods checked, new cylinders and pistons, new cam, new fuel injection system, new oil pump.

Started right up on initial start, now waiting for ground to dry in front of hangar so I don't get stuck in mud.  2 hr breakin flight next.

not cheap but now I have better than new engine (NO ADs on my 50 yr old crank !!!).

Bill

 

After reading the forum yesterday it led me to do some research.  Part of what I found might pertain to you and your break in if you choose to believe it.  Here is a partial quote I found:

"15. Using a multiviscosity AD mineral oil to break in a factory-new or zero-time overhauled aircraft engine will not damage the cylinders.
It is not true, as some believe, that multiviscosity mineral AD oils do not properly break in aircraft engines will damage the cylinders. The break-in phase (the engine’s first 10 to 12 operating hours) is, simply, the dirtiest time for an engine. During break-in, the engine’s oil will be exposed to contaminants and break-in wear metals, as well as excess fuel. Over the past 10 years, America’s Aircraft Engines, Inc. (Tulsa, Okla.), has researched and overseen extensive tests on the break-in of engines using multiviscosity mineral AD oils. Using Phillips 66 X/C 20W-50 multiviscosity oil as its research and testing base, America’s Aircraft Engines has determined several key advantages to breaking in an engine with a multiviscosity mineral AD oil:
• Multiviscosity mineral AD oils "seat" piston rings in approximately half the time of a straight grade oil. Synthetics are unable to break-in an engine.
• Multiviscosity mineral AD oils reduce the chance of break-in cylinder glazing, a risk pilots take when breaking in an engine with a straight-grade mineral oil. A straight- grade will often deposit varnish and lacquer in the high engine temperatures reached during break-in. As a result, these materials may collect in the cylinder wall crosshatching and magnify glazing of a marginal cylinder.
• Multiviscosity mineral AD oils, when used during break-in and beyond, provide quicker start-up than straight grade mineral oils. The lubrication provided by multigrade mineral AD oils is more immediate than that provided by straight grade mineral oils.
• A good single or multigrade AD mineral oil will suspend debris that is created during the "dirty" time of break-in, keeping it from being deposited inside the engine. An initial 10-hour drain will rid the system of the contamination introduced during break in. "

If you want to read the entire article, here is the website: THE FACTS ABOUT AVIATION OIL

Remember though that the Shell and Exxon multigrade oils are at least partially synthetic.  Only the Phillips multigrade is all mineral based.

Based on what I read here yesterday, and the research I did on line, my partners and I are going to switch to Phillips XC 20w50 with Camguard at our next oil change.  We'll see if we have reduced oil consumption or not.  And the bonus is that the Phillips is $1/quart cheaper than the Aeroshell w80 or w100.

[Bob_Belville]

Bob, that would be more convincing if it came from a source other than Phillips Oil. I've read too many conflicting claims to accept at face value science or engineering data from someone with a vested interest. 

[Guest]

Here is what Lycoming say.  Note that in paragraph "d" they say to use mineral oil not Ashless dispersant oils for break in.

http://lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications/serviceinstructions/SI%201014M%20(05-22-1995)/Lubricating%20Oil%20Recommendations.pdf

 

Clarence

[bonal]

I have always been a proponent for not changing oil types on engines that have significant time on one type of oil.  This comes from old school engine build thinking and is likely a non issue but I have always followed this principle and have had excellent service length from all of the many engines I have owned over the years.  back in the day TRW recommended wiping pistons with ATF before setting in cylinders whereas JET recommended wiping with acetone before installation.  What if anything is used when assembling aircraft top ends. Good luck on your new engine Bill keep us informed, they should have a topic for new engines and top ends so folks could keep us up to speed on the new machines hey are operating.

[M20F]

3 hours ago, bonal said:

I have always been a proponent for not changing oil types on engines that have significant time on one type of oil. 

Oil is largely oil.  There are two things which hurt airplane engines.  Infrequent use and infrequency of oil change.  Change your oil every three months or better (with whatever oil you want) and you probably do more to get it to TBO than anything else.

[Bob - S50]

On 1/28/2016 at 8:52 AM, Bob_Belville said:

Bob, that would be more convincing if it came from a source other than Phillips Oil. I've read too many conflicting claims to accept at face value science or engineering data from someone with a vested interest. 

I'm a bit of a skeptic myself however let me point out a couple things.

1.  If it is the multiweight part you don't care for, Phillips makes and sells single weight oil.  If he thought it worked better he could have recommended that product.

2.  If it is the AD you don't like, Phillips also makes a multiweight straight mineral (no AD) oil.  If he thought that was better he could have recommended that product.

Since he did not do either of those, I think he really believes what he said as opposed to just trying to sell oil.

Like I said, it's up to all of us to decide whether or not we believe what we read.

Bob

[chrisk]

On 1/27/2016 at 11:55 AM, StinkBug said:

This could have a great effect on so called consumption. If I fill mine over 7 it blows the excess out the breather. It's not really consumption, it's just getting rid of it. Since I figured that out and only fill to 7 I only actually consume a quart every 20 hours (which I'm told is very good). When I filled to 8 it was one every 3-5 hours because that's how long it took to blow that extra quart out the breather. Omitting the extra quart not only made oil changes a couple bucks cheaper, saved me the money of all those wasted top off quarts, it also helps keep the belly a lot cleaner.

 

This may not be your issue at all, but worth noting.

I tend to overfill, so I don't know how much mine actually burns.  I do know it a whole lot ends up on the belly of my plane.  -- I also fall into the camp of I'd rather have a bit of extra oil if I'm going to fly the plane 8+ hours that day, and especially if a good part of it is in/over IMC. 

[Bob_Belville]

26 minutes ago, chrisk said:

I tend to overfill, so I don't know how much mine actually burns.  I do know it a whole lot ends up on the belly of my plane.  -- I also fall into the camp of I'd rather have a bit of extra oil if I'm going to fly the plane 8+ hours that day, and especially if a good part of it is in/over IMC. 

I would think you ought to research this. It's my impression, and I claim no personal expertise, is that it is wasteful, unnecessary, messy, and possibly even harmful to run with more oil than the engine seems to need. And if it is blowing out a qt or more in the 1st hour of flight you don't really get a feel for what the engine is burning or leaking. Mike Busch runs his C310 engines @ 7-8 qts (sump is 12). He says  "FAA certification requirements demand that the engine be designed to hold twice as much oil as it actually needs:"

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194208-1.html

[kpaul]

I have a similar issue, my plane vents anything over 6 qts on the belly, but then maintains right at 6 qts with very minimal burn.