Ripped off from my annual inspection

[Yetti]

For the price.  Print out the mooney annual inspection.   or ask for the one they should have filled out.   Ask to meet with the I/A who signed off and both y'all go through the plane and have him explain to you each of the items on the inspection form and how they relate to your plane.

 

 

[bonal]

Sorry to hear of your difficulty but I bet there are few that have not experienced something similar with regards to annuals. I hope you can resolve this with a reasonable outcome. I have yet to have a non issue and keep hoping the next will be the one. For me doing the owner assist gives me first hand knowledge as to what's being done (since I'm doing) the work but I still have to pay the flat on the inspection something I don't entirely agree with. Being there kind of forces them to not put mine on the back burner so the work gets done. I would also point out the damage that was caused to your paint and if it was caused by them then they are on the hook for cost to make it right.

[PMcClure]

2 hours ago, teejayevans said:

I don't think it matters, I think once you tell them to inspect it, if they find its unairworthy, it's grounded, that's why that pre buys must be not considered inspections, but considered evaluations.

If you have possession of your plane and log books, I would not bring them back to this shop. Keep the deck stacked in your favor until you get a resolution. At least you can get a 2nd annual done and be legal while you sort our the mess with the last guy. 

 

[Yetti]

Just to take the mystery out of an annual inspection, it is mostly just a really through pre-flight.  There are some things that need covers removed but like checking for slop in the tail section or checking for slop in flight surfaces they should be done every pre-flight.   Giving every thing a shot of lube, Lights work, manual gear extends, check the timing on the mags,oil change, compression check, could all be done by the owner.

Get a signed off Inspection in your possession, then if you find unairworthyness on anything on the Annual Inspection sheet you have some basis.    Airworthyness can be a little subjective.

[Parker_Woodruff]

This thread is one more reason to use shops that don't have to learn Mooney-specific repairs on your bird.  Go to the ones that already know.

[FloridaMan]

Where are you located? 

[philiplane]

5 hours ago, rblauson said:

Can you give me a call? I'm worried about my next step here 

203-243-0099 Mark

scan and email the invoice to me for review if you like. I am a Connecticut refugee and know all the shops in New England.

[DXB]

This sounds very painful - sorry for your   troubles.  As someone who is pretty new to ownership over the last year, I'm  getting the feeling that  communication and trust built up over time with a GA mechanic and shop are rare commodities- I haven't established this yet, and it seems an infinitely more important consideration than base annual cost or hourly rate.  As with  any early relationship, it's tough to walk the line between deference and assertiveness. So far I've erred on the side of "inquisitive deference" with mixed results.

[cliffy]

I feel bad for your predicament. Unfortunately this happens all too often in our Mooney world. It shouldn't but it does. From lack of understanding on both parties part, problems arise that should have been cleared up before the work starts.

First lets look at what really needs to happen

#1 is an " ANNUAL INSPECTION"  This is outlined specifically in Mooney's Annual and 100 hr Inspection form (a 100 hr and an Annual inspection in reality includes the exact same scope of items for inspection. If you are renting your airplane then you have to do 100 hr inspections, the scope every 100 hr is exactly the same as an annual inspection.). There is some "servicing" included in the form (oil change , filter change, etc). One needs to verify what EXACTLY is included in the quoted "Annual Inspection Fee".  Only the "open up and look and see" portion or also the "servicing" included in the Inspection form.

#2 would be any "servicing" not included in the quoted fee. Wheel bearings, spark plugs, etc. 

#3 Fixing or repairing items found during the Inspection (any "Inspection" will include a listing of squawks found during the Inspection)

      Be aware that any first time look at an unknown airplane MAY find items not done correctly by someone else. I have seen this in       many, many airplanes that I have looked at and it has been discussed in several threads here on this forum. I found a starter power cable on my own Mooney that was replaced with an automotive wire while doing my pre-buy inspection. No info on who did it. 

One requisite  of an annual and your AI is that he is required to certify that the airplane meets its Type Certificate OR is repaired or modified in an Approved manner. "Subjective" airworthiness really shouldn't enter the discussion. It's either correct or it's not. There is even an FAR that governs 'Inoperative Equipment". You say your ADF doesn't work? How about your autopilot or something else? If it's not inop'd or fixed according to the FAR you could find yourself on the back side of an FAA investigation. If your AI signes it off in that condition, he could too.  Yes, I know, I'm a hard a^% on this but, trust me, you don't ever want to be on the back side of an FAA investigation even if they say they are "kindler and gentler" now. 

The Inspection fee should also include the AD search BUT if your log books are a mess they may charge more time for research.

Additionally, "inspection time" before the "annual inspection" seems somewhat dubious. What would be inspected that wasn't looked at on the actual Annual Inspection?  

As you can see there are at least 3 components to an Annual Inspection. To just say, "do my annual" and not confirm what that includes leads to many misunderstandings in the end. 

I do hope you get things cleared up and go enjoy your airplane.

[rblauson]

First, I want thank ALL of you Mooney owners for so quickly attempting to offer advice and help. I obviously chose the right airplane and the right community. If only I had chosen the right MX shop. As it turns out I compromised with the shop, although there is no doubt they got the better deal. I'll life to fight a bigger battle in life. This one just wasn't worth going to court over and having to agonize over the many details in the process. The good news is I have my plane back and it seems to operate fine. The bad news is that shop managed to damage some of the white paint on my wings surrounding my fuel access panels on top. Now that I have settled the matter with the MX shop, I have to find either a paint shop or a paint detailer that can touch up the mess they made. I'm in HFD ( Hartford, CT). Any ideas on that front ? Again, many thanks to all of your input regarding this. Happy Holidays -Mark

[MB65E]

I've seen nice paintwork from aircraft with "Oxford" paint stickers on the tail. I think they are in the Boston area. Glad you were able to work it out. 

 

-Matt

[rblauson]

Thank you Matt!

Happy Holidays 

[neilpilot]

On 12/19/2015 at 0:24 AM, rblauson said:

I have to find either a paint shop or a paint detailer that can touch up the mess they made. I'm in HFD ( Hartford, CT). Any ideas on that front ? Again, many thanks to all of your input regarding this. Happy Holidays -Mark

During my last annual, we asked my non-MSC shop to touch up the paint.  Our primary problem was erosion on both wing leading edges.  They ended up painting the entire wings, and if I recall correctly it cost less less than $1k.  The majority of that was the cost of paint..  Very good paint match, and they did a fantastic job.

My shop isn't near CT, but my point is that you may be able to get a decent touchup from a regular shop, and not need to go to a paint shop.  Just don't go back to your shop! 

On the other hand, my typical annuals (not including repairs, mag overhauls, etc) run under $1k.  Have used them for 20 years.  After 6 years, I took it to a MSC for an annual because I also had Mooney-specific mods installed, and the MSC didn't find any real deficiencies that the non-MSC shop had missed or induced over those years.  Maybe a trip to KTKX for your last annual would be cost-effective?

Edited December 21, 2015 by neilpilot
Dyslectic when typing airport

[ryoder]

Let the buyer beware is in full effect in aviation.  Sucks but it is.

[Hank]

42 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Let the buyer beware is in full effect in aviation.  Sucks but it is.

Don't kid yourself, it's in full effect everywhere. 

[Guest]

The term "Annual" has as many meanings and interpretations as there are pilots and maintainers.  

Whether you use the Mooney check list or the FAR check list I seriously doubt that it is being completed in some of the amazing times discussed in the thread(less than a day in many cases)

I've been blamed for an "expensive annual" which was $40K.  It included new engine and prop, plus a number of other items including 13% tax on the entire job.  But because the invoice said "Annual" that's how the owner interpreted it.  Now we break out all of the various portions for clarity.

No matter which side of an expensive job you're on there are bound to be strong emotions and bad feelings.  I'd love to hear the shops story relative to the OP.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

On December 18, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Shadrach said:

I think that shops would save themselves a lot of trouble and reputation difficulties if the notion of the "blank check" service request went the way of the Dodo. Any and every shop should discuss options and costs with the owner and receive authorization to perform the work. We had an Avionics shop on the field that would always call and tell me the work had been completed when I was expecting a diagnostics report. The manager would never have the invoice when he called and he was never there when I picked up the radio. They're out of business now; I wonder why? 

It's hard to beware of shops that rip customers off when the owners remain silent about the shop that did the ripping off.  It's not a transparent market.  I'd say when your plane breaks down on a trip it's not a market at all, it's a free opportunity to stick it to the hapless owner.  These boards are full of it.   Now I've been lucky sunshine aviation in KLEE Florida really did me right, pulled a mag and reset the points and had it back together by noon.  But I got burned on the prebuy where the shop actively hid the cylinder they pulled off for a prebuy because it had corrosion. And a 450$ alternator install job.  BM at KAXH.  

[flyboy0681]

Just now, jetdriven said:

It's hard to beware of shops that rip customers off when the owners remain silent about the shop that did the ripping off.  It's not a transparent market.  I'd say when your plane breaks down on a trip it's not a market at all, it's a free opportunity to stick it to the hapless owner.  These boards are full of it.  

Probably a true statement but the one time when I had a problem and had to land immediately, the shop was more than fair and honest. Two years ago I experienced an extremely rough engine and landed in Tallahassee. The outfit there, Flightline, investigated and charged me all of $300 for many hours of their time. In the end nothing was found and they chalked it up to a clogged injector. They could have said anything and charged me a bundle.

[jetdriven]

At our repeated urging, there is never a thread about shops that do very good by you, and shops that rip people off. 

[Carlton]

Can you tell us what airport performed the work?

 

[mike_elliott]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 0:07 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Fixing leaks in Mooney tanks has a steep learning curve. After you figure it out, you can fix any leak with one tank opening. You shouldn't have to pay them to learn how to do it. Especially when you could have taken it to a shop like Maxwell's or Beck's who could have done it right the first time with about 10 hours of labor.

Don Maxwell charges 750 to repair a leak, no guarantees, but a 99 percent success rate. He will not do strip and and reseal, he leaves that to pros like Paul Beck at weep no more. Sometimes, when you repair a leak, you are repairing TODAYS crack in the sealant, which has been compromised because of neglect (yes, leaving your tanks empty in the hot sun will dry out and crack the 30 year old sealant, and doesn't do bladders any favors either) and you can spring another a few weeks later.

2K for a patch is a bit "ambitious" with industry standards.

[mike_elliott]

8 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The term "Annual" has as many meanings and interpretations as there are pilots and maintainers.  

Whether you use the Mooney check list or the FAR check list I seriously doubt that it is being completed in some of the amazing times discussed in the thread(less than a day in many cases)

I've been blamed for an "expensive annual" which was $40K.  It included new engine and prop, plus a number of other items including 13% tax on the entire job.  But because the invoice said "Annual" that's how the owner interpreted it.  Now we break out all of the various portions for clarity.

No matter which side of an expensive job you're on there are bound to be strong emotions and bad feelings.  I'd love to hear the shops story relative to the OP.

Clarence

Still not a record, Clarence. I know of a 47K "annual" on a C model. Included prop OH and spar repair, no new engine, however

[MyNameIsNobody]

Just Wow.  The poster said he was "ripped off", but gave VERY LITTLE information as to "how he was ripped off".  Four months to repair a fuel leak...AND the paint was damaged and NOT repaired by those that damaged it?  REALLY.

The annual identified "Nothing out of the ordinary" beyond "fixing a bunch of stuff that was NOT properly done previously"...

No providing of a PDF with an invoice with line by line.  Why not?  Easy to sanitize the N number owner and shop...why you would NOT want to "out" someone you believe "ripped you off"...your words not mine is hard to fathom.

Every once and a while an owner comes on here stating above...sometimes we then get the "other side".  This is clear as mud, but if you are taking your plane to someone you DO NOT KNOW and have little working knowledge on what is involved, WHY would you not get:

1. What is your labor and parts for an annual less squeaks price?

2. Get this in writing.

3. Put in writing that ANY squaks WILL be discussed with labor and parts approximate price BEFORE work is completed.

4. Duration of annual will be IN WRITING.  You have stated plane will be completed (regular annual) in ____(insert time).  I will bring my plane______.  I will pick up my plane_________.

I understand that once you have a relationship a phone call and labor are KNOWN factors.  I understand that "IT" happens when inspections are completed, BUT a 4 month $9k annual leaves a bunch of unknowns.  I personally do NOT feel "sorry for you".  Hopefully you learned from this experience.  If you SHARE your lessons learned you might save someone else "the pain".

THAT would be awesome.

Otherwise I personally think that there are people that take advantage of "suckers"...because people make assumptions.

Caveot Emptor...

[rblauson]

Don't rush to assumptions although I do not blame you for being skeptical. I guess I never even thought someone on here would presume what you just said. But I'll be honest about it. First, the reason I decided not to state the owners name or the shop at this point is because he agreed to a compromise with me to settle it. Why would I want to go bash him or his shop after that? Yes I'm still angry about it all, it was a total disaster. It's true I'm not satisfied with the deal I ended up with, but isn't that the nature of compromise ? Regarding the original facts of this story. There are a lot of details I didnt include ( mostly because after 4 months of pain and back and forth with the shop it would take pages to explain it all). I felt I did a decent enough job telling my side of the story and not putting you to sleep considering my objective was to get good advice from this community. Which I absolutely did get. The bottom line is there are always two sides to a story, and as other Mooney owners have stated they have heard far worse stories of annuals gone wrong. My honest opinion is if you knew me, you were familiar with my airplane, and we're privy to all of the facts surrounding this story, you would without a doubt take my side in it. I try to be objective and fair when dealing with anyone, including this shop. I tried to put myself in the owners shoes a number of times during my discussions with him. If you asked the owner of the shop about it all, I'm sure he'd disagree with some of it. With that said, the two major things he couldn't disagree with that matter most is the 4 month timeline for a standard mooney annual ( you can rebuild a friggin airplane in that amount of time ) and the fuel leak debacle which took him two months to repair ( if it's even repaired- jury still out ) and he openly admitted that he trusted his mechanic to handle the fuel leak and stated he  and I quote " I got bad info from my mechanic about handling your fuel leak properly and it turned into a mess". The owner should have poured his resources into getting it done especially considering he already had my plane in his shop two months leading up to the fuel leak, but he chose to work on other airplanes. How did I know? I would walk into the shop and see for myself .The owner had no problem admitting his shop royally screwed up my fuel leak issue, but in the end didn't want to take responsibility for it. In the end we compromised. But I learned some valuable lessons. I'll fly this thing to TX to have Don Maxwell do my next annual if I have to. I figure 2k to fly it there and back and an honest quality annual. Worth every cent until I can find an honest capable shop near me. I'm looking!!! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays,  

Mark

[rblauson]

I just reread your post. For the record nowhere do I ask for anyone to feel sorry for me. I asked for advice.