Engine failure

[Loogie]

3 hours ago, frcabot said:

Well, mechanic told me there is a significant amount of aluminum in the oil filter (probably from the piston) and he feels the engine needs to come off and be overhauled. So there it is.

So, back to my original question. What are some good overhaul shops for a Lycoming IO-360-A3B6D?

The pricing of Corona Engines looks pretty competitive even with California sales tax (I was quoted about $18,500 or so).http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul Has anyone ever used them?

Smart decision!

[frcabot]

3 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Does that include new cylinders? New cam and lifters? overhauled dual mag?

Overhauled cylinders only and overhauled everything else. New factory cylinders are available but that brings the price up $5K.

[kmyfm20s]

34 minutes ago, frcabot said:

Received more info.

While I thought I remembered that the plane had a bottom overhaul ~400 hours ago, that doesn't seem to be the case. Instead, it was a bottom "repair" after the previous owner suffered a prop strike. So the broken items were repaired, but not everything in a bottom overhaul was done.  For example, it doesn't look like the camshaft was overhauled/replaced as in a typical overhaul.  Moreover, although I don't have the logs to verify, the mechanic tells me that the top "overhaul" from ~1000 hours ago also wasn't a full overhaul.  It doesn't look like the valves, for example, were replaced.

Given this information, I'm feeling more confident that a major overhaul to new limits is the way to go given the high time on engine. If I do a top overhaul now and a bottom overhaul a year from now, I still have an engine with 2000+ hours SMOH, which is going to affect the resale value pretty significantly (not that I'm expecting to sell it anytime soon, but still...).

What are some recommendations for OH shops? Has anyone used Corona Engines?

I used Tim's aircraft engines in Long Beach. Very professional clean shop and the price was fair. They invited me to stop in while the engine is apart and spent a lot of time going over a showing me how the do everything. They are worth a call for sure. I just past 215 hours since my overhaul and all is good.

[frcabot]

2 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

I used Tim's aircraft engines in Long Beach. Very professional clean shop and the price was fair. They invited me to stop in while the engine is apart and spent a lot of time going over a showing me how the do everything. They are worth a call for sure. I just past 215 hours since my overhaul and all is good.

Thanks, I'll reach out.

[Loogie]

On November 9, 2015 at 7:15:10 PM, Shadrach said:

Loog,

 I'm trying to follow your line of thinking. I agree that one must have confidence in their equipment. However, I don't follow why a cylinder set with recommended TBO of 2000hrs should be considered beyond TBO with only 1000hrs SOH? Similarly, why would you consider a bottom end with 400hrs SOH beyond TBO? If both were operating together on the same engine, why would you say it's time to OH or replac the engine when none of the components have spent anywhere near there lifetime in service. I understand that there are practical reasons to renew everything at the same time. I also understand that certain types of failures make a complete tear down prudent. However, from an operational standpoint, I don't see how having a top and bottom out of sinc matters if they are both within calendar time and time in service.

 

Well, it's just an opinion, I am not a mechanic, and I want to know where I am starting from known parameters. I understand you are comfortable with the parameters you described above, but for me, it's just not an option.  In my mind I rather have an FAA parameter overhauled engine vs an engine like you described above.  

Not discounting your thoughts and knowledge, just what I am comfortable with.   If an engine I had went through a serious problem like what just happened, I would never trust that the rest of the engine went through unscathed, metal particles etc.. 

I have had one engine failure in a single engine a/c, and it's not fun to have to test those aviation skills:).  So I guess it's just me being conservative.  

 

[Shadrach]

24 minutes ago, frcabot said:

Overhauled cylinders only and overhauled everything else. New factory cylinders are available but that brings the price up $5K.

I would strongly advocate getting factory new cylinders in your situation. Cylinders are fine for 1 overhaul, I might even consider overhauling them twice knowing how well they've been treated. With unknown cylinders that have already been OH'd once, is go with new.

[Shadrach]

43 minutes ago, frcabot said:

1 hour ago, frcabot said:

Just have the bottom entry log for now. It's cryptic and I've asked the shop (One Stop Aviation in CA) to send me the work order. Basically, it sounds like the bottom was torn open and repaired as necessary, but not overhauled to new limits.  Parts that didn't need to be replaced or overhauled, such as the camshaft for example, weren't.

"Disassemble engine & inspect for prop strike. Magnaflux crankshaft & all steel parts. Zyglo case. Check for hidden damage. Counter weights worn. Replace rod nuts & bolts. Replace main & rod bearings. Replace seals, gaskets & c.w parts. Magneto inspection. See listed parts. All current AD's complied with. Reassemble engine, ready for installation."

I'll ask the mechanic for the top entry.

That's a relatively comprehensive IRAN. We're back to the camshaft thing. Cam and crank assemblies are often reused at overhaul. I think I'd still opt for an Overhaul.

[carusoam]

When going, OH what is the latest lubrication improvements for the Lyc cam?

- additional oil holes..?

- additional Ney nozzles?

- is there a way to verify (X-ray microscope) the new cam's composition? (Early 90’s problem)

The nice thing about having a few years of Mooney experience... You know exactly what you want your plane to be. It is easier to spread the costs out over time when you look forward to flying the plane for the next five years.

If it's your first year with the plane it is harder to judge what your cost of flying really is.

Keep up the good work FRC!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[PTK]

8 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I'm not claiming it's inferior, I'm claiming that the real benefits  aren't realized in a certified engine that's limited to 200 hp.

Why not? Please educate me. Reducing friction alone is a good thing. 

Lycoming factory OH A3B6 is under 30K. The only potential problem I see with that is the Slick mags. And Lycoming gives no other option.

[jetdriven]

11 hours ago, frcabot said:

Overhauled cylinders only and overhauled everything else. New factory cylinders are available but that brings the price up $5K.

So it's a half cup of tea for half price. You can get the same 4 cylinders with unknown time on them or perhaps 5-8k hours on them.  It's not the same as new cylinders.  Add those to the cost, it's only 4-5 k less than a factory engine which has 2 separate mags, a roller cam, and new case. 

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

Why not? Please educate me. Reducing friction alone is a good thing. 

Lycoming factory OH A3B6 is under 30K. The only potential problem I see with that is the Slick mags. And Lycoming gives no other option.

Put Bendix mags on it. I did 

[PTK]

25 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Put Bendix mags on it. I did 

Yes, but have to buy them. What happens to the brand bew Slicks? They don't exchange them. 

I wish Lycoming would give a choice. I wonder why they don't.

[jetdriven]

42 minutes ago, PTK said:

Yes, but have to buy them. What happens to the brand bew Slicks? They don't exchange them. 

I wish Lycoming would give a choice. I wonder why they don't.

They do take them as cores.  But it's better to buy two cores off eBay for 300$ and send those in for your 1100$ worth of mags and harness.  Then sell the slicks to an  RV builder for a grand.  When it's all done you're only out 500$ or so.

lycoming quit putting Bendix mags on when Continental bought them.  It's political, they didn't want to give money to the competitor. 

[ArtVandelay]

42 minutes ago, PTK said:

Yes, but have to buy them. What happens to the brand bew Slicks? They don't exchange them. 

I wish Lycoming would give a choice. I wonder why they don't.

Because TCM owns Bendix now, would Ford use GM accessories ?

[Hank]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

Because TCM owns Bendix now, would Ford use GM accessories ?

My Jaguar left the factory in England with a reworked GM Turbo 400 transmission . . . . .

[PTK]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

They do take them as cores.  But it's better to buy two cores off eBay for 300$ and send those in for your 1100$ worth of mags and harness.  Then sell the slicks to an  RV builder for a grand.  When it's all done you're only out 500$ or so.

lycoming quit putting Bendix mags on when Continental bought them.  It's political, they didn't want to give money to the competitor. 

Can you tell them hold the mags! Will they ship the engine without mags?

[jetdriven]

No

[PTK]

Well, that sucks...!

The customer pays the big bucks and is forced to have their options limited!

 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

Well, that sucks...!

The customer pays the big bucks and is forced to have their options limited!

 

So why is it bad when Lycoming does this, but good when Garmin won't let their GPS communicate with your ipad?  

(Sorry, sometimes I can't help poking the bear. Just not Marauder . . . )

[mcpilot]

Spoke with my IA today.  He restores Warbirds and has a Beechcraft shop.    He spends a lot of time doing complete bare metal restorations.  When I mentioned this thread he explained that the big bore Continentals are not immune to valve problems.  According to him, CHTs that are too low allow lead buildup and valves do not seat properly because the guide wear is uneven.  They have valves departing fro the stem.  He sees factory remans with 600 hours sometimes with this problem.

As far as the Lycoming overhauls, he tells me that the roller tappets are the fix for cam spalling due to pitting.  While the pitting and corrosion may still be present, the fact that the roller imparts forces in a different manner is supposed to lessen the incidence of spalling.  In other words, they cannot make the pitting go away so they "deal" with it....

 

[Seth]

On November 9, 2015 at 10:55:19 AM, flyboy0681 said:

I experienced a clogged injector earlier this year, and while the engine ran rough and shook like a SOB, it continued to generate enough power to maintain altitude until it cleared, which according to the JPI, was 40 (long) seconds.

That happened to me twice in my former M20F.  Both times it did not clear until I was safe on the ground and had a mechanic clear it.  Once dirt (2009) once paint slivers (2011).  Shook and ran rough, but did provide power.  No engine monitor in that bird.

-Seth

[ArtVandelay]

5 hours ago, Seth said:

That happened to me twice in my former M20F.  Both times it did not clear until I was safe on the ground and had a mechanic clear it.  Once dirt (2009) once paint slivers (2011).  Shook and ran rough, but did provide power.  No engine monitor in that bird.

-Seth

I had this happen, normally high egt, lo cht is a spark plug not firing, but with the FF i  think it was a partially clogged injector, cleared itself.

 

[carusoam]

TJ,

What is causing the spikes in the blue line (FF?)

The graphic is fuzzy and a little challenging to read.

The blue line has a few strong spikes the EGT and CHT seem to be a response to the blue line.  

Usually, with a blocked injector the flow continues by distribution amongst the other injectors.

Note: I am a PP, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2015‎ ‎9‎:‎31‎:‎36‎, jetdriven said:

Im not defending the Lycoming factory, I have my issues. But I think the only thing that solves or at least seriously mitigates the possibility of cam/lifter failure is the roller cam, and there's only one source.  I know about a dozen people personally who have experiened cam failure, but none with rollers. None with google search with roller lifters, save for a guy who goes by the handle of docthrock, he had a Rocket and the engine sat in a basement for 18 months and after 200 hours it had worm trails on the cam, it was still running and not spalled, BTW.  He crahsed it and opened it up and found this. Rollers roll over defects, flat tappets pull and spall metal. 

I do agree with Shadrach that the older cams, say, before 1990-1995 do seem to be made of better metal and they dont have as much of this problem, but not as good as roller cams.  But nothing fixes it, and I havent read about a roller failure but I have a friend, AaronK25, who is on his 3rd engine in 5 years. Several more on their second.

Byron, did you ever report the cause of why your engine from Lyc  was making metal, or am I thinking of someone else?

[ArtVandelay]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

TJ,

What is causing the spikes in the blue line (FF?)

The graphic is fuzzy and a little challenging to read.

The blue line has a few strong spikes the EGT and CHT seem to be a response to the blue line.  

Usually, with a blocked injector the flow continues by distribution amongst the other injectors.

Note: I am a PP, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

Not sure why it's fuzzy, my iPad shows it pretty clear if I touch it, maybe try treating it as a link, and click on it.

im assuming the FF is spiking because the injector is partially clogged, seems reasonable to me, you notice there is another big spike when it clears itself.