Purchase a C, E or J?

[Bob_Belville]

If it is a distance race the F beats the E hands down. More gas stops. Less payload for the E. 

Who races pickup truck or station wagons? Next thing you know we'll be taking Cherokee 6s.

And you must not know that O&N bladders for Es are 64 gallons. And The F's greater payload is because it has a higher gross weight, a quirk of when the two models were certified. 

[Ned Gravel]

 

Them is racing words!

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My money is on Bob and the lighter E model.

[Gary0747]

The payload difference amounts to the equlivant of 25 gallons of gas any way you want to look at it. The bladders simply add weight and reduce payload further. The weight difference also has to do with the weight distributions being much more centered on the F and 201 it is not a quirk it is part of certification.  The E is much easier to end up off CG.   I have every 201 mod there is on my F and perfect rigging. I have raced and beat a 1978 201. So lets say we race from Phoenix to Michigan standard tanks or Extended tanks. I do not have those but you can actually turn the outside bay into another tank to make use of the full payload. 

[Bob_Belville]

The payload difference amounts to the equlivant of 25 gallons of gas any way you want to look at it. The bladders simply add weight and reduce payload further. The weight difference also has to do with the weight distributions being much more centered on the F and 201 it is not a quirk it is part of certification.  The E is much easier to end up off CG.   I have every 201 mod there is on my F and perfect rigging. I have raced and beat a 1978 201. So lets say we race from Phoenix to Michigan standard tanks or Extended tanks. I do not have those but you can actually turn the outside bay into another tank to make use of the full payload. 

The arm for fuel is in front of the rear CG limit (48.4" vs. 49"). Adding any amount of fuel cannot move the CG behind the rear limit. But B26 brought up racing, not rear seat passengers or luggage. I readily admit your F is a better station wagon than my E. So's an Aztec.   

[Marauder]

How about dueling Aspen TAS pics @ 9500'?

I'm game. How about 10,500'?

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[Bob_Belville]

 

I'm game. How about 10,500'?

 

 

 

 

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Wow, your Aspen is a little different from mine. Bright white and special font for bat man speeds! But your CAS appears to be 121 vs. my 135.5 @ 9500. (CAS - calibrated for monkey business.)

[Gary0747]

You missed my point on the CG. The shorter body C and E is easier to end up loaded out of the CG limits and this is really the main reasion that it was not able to be certified with the higher gross weight and payload that the 201 and F were certified at. The extra length adds very little weight to the airplane but does allow the approximate 165 pound increase in max gross weight.   The difference in empty weight between an E and an F is a mere 22 pounds. 

Yes for a quick $100 hamburger trip with two people the E is potentially the winner but for a time sensitive longer trip with more than two people I prefer my F station wagon. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

I prefer a J.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Load hauling (especially backseaters) are over-rated in a Mooney.  It's all about the speed.  E wins that fight.

[Shadrach]

Load hauling (especially backseaters) are over-rated in a Mooney.  It's all about the speed.  E wins that fight.

So what you're saying is that you don't think size matters; it's all about how fast you are...  

Edited September 12, 2015 by Shadrach

[ArtVandelay]

Wow, your Aspen is a little different from mine. Bright white and special font for bat man speeds! But your CAS appears to be 121 vs. my 135.5 @ 9500. (CAS - calibrated for monkey business.)

But your fuel burn is 10.2, my J lumbers along at 128, 7.8gph @ 2300rpm. It's not about the speed, it's about doing it efficiently

So assuming $5/gal, that's $12/hr savings, assuming 150 hrs per year, that means I saved $1800 in fuel costs, a couple more years and I will have saved enough to buy one of those fancy Aspens

[MyNameIsNobody]

So what you're saying is that you don't think size matters; it's all about how fast you are...  

Many self-depricating jokes....must resist....

 

Good one

[MyNameIsNobody]

 

But your fuel burn is 10.2, my J lumbers along at 128, 7.8gph @ 2300rpm. It's not about the speed, it's about doing it efficiently

 

So assuming $5/gal, that's $12/hr savings, assuming 150 hrs per year, that means I saved $1800 in fuel costs, a couple more years and I will have saved enough to buy one of those fancy Aspens

Nailed it.  Load hauling to the max with removable back seats and already completed speed mods to maximize efficient speed.  E gives you more speed...F gives you more hauling capacity (for a Mooney)...J is two...two...two awesome in one.

E fits his mission and price.  Get the E.

I will always be seduced by Roy's wonder kinder, the Uber F...

The "J"

[Bob_Belville]

 

But your fuel burn is 10.2, my J lumbers along at 128, 7.8gph @ 2300rpm. It's not about the speed, it's about doing it efficiently

 

So assuming $5/gal, that's $12/hr savings, assuming 150 hrs per year, that means I saved $1800 in fuel costs, a couple more years and I will have saved enough to buy one of those fancy Aspens

Well, we're talking racing, not lumbering in the park. But I have another panel shot @ 65% LOP, 8500', 146kts, 8.2 gph which makes your 128 kts on 7.8 gph seem downright wasteful. (I tried to upload the jpg but MS is not cooperating this morning. I've posted it before so it might be in my galleries.)  

[Marauder]

Well, we're talking racing, not lumbering in the park. But I have another panel shot @ 65% LOP, 8500', 146kts, 8.2 gph which makes your 128 kts on 7.8 gph seem downright wasteful. (I tried to upload the jpg but MS is not cooperating this morning. I've posted it before so it might be in my galleries.)  

Sure, sure... You're just having problems with PhotoShop like I did last night!

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[Bob_Belville]

 

 

Sure, sure... You're just having problems with PhotoShop like I did last night!

 

 

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I sandbagged you. 146 kts tas, 8.2 gph, 8500' JPI shows nominal 65% power but per FF LOP formula it was 61.5%. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by Bob_Belville

[Bob_Belville]

I sandbagged you. 146 kts tas, 8.2 gph, 8500' JPI shows nominal 65% power but per FF LOP formula it was 61.5%. 

And you'll note I have the ram air closed and I'm running 2360 rpm so there's more speed in reserve in case I sight a F and need to go around it.

[bonal]

Well you guys beat the crap out of me at 8500 Yesterday I was running 142 knots true but had power pulled to 20 inches and 2450 also was very hot so had the top vent open and left the cowl flaps open as well. 

[Bob_Belville]

Well you guys beat the crap out of me at 8500 Yesterday I was running 142 knots true but had power pulled to 20 inches and 2450 also was very hot so had the top vent open and left the cowl flaps open as well. 

Hum, was the gear down? 

[bonal]

Hum, was the gear down? 

no gear was up but since no AC I had the window down with my arm out playing the flying hand game

[gsxrpilot]

I would love to have an E or a J. In fact, Bob, tell your wife I've got dibs on your E when she's through with it. :-)  But in the mean time, my C will get me there.  Last week it took me to Maxwell's for it's annual. ForeFlight was showing a 4 to 7 kt head wind, but the little C was still making 144 to 148 kts over the ground.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6XM/history/20150907/1400Z/84R/KGGG/tracklog

 

[bonal]

I would love to have an E or a J. In fact, Bob, tell your wife I've got dibs on your E when she's through with it. :-)  But in the mean time, my C will get me there.  Last week it took me to Maxwell's for it's annual. ForeFlight was showing a 4 to 7 kt head wind, but the little C was still making 144 to 148 kts over the ground.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6XM/history/20150907/1400Z/84R/KGGG/tracklog

 

what were your power settins MP RPM etc?

[gsxrpilot]

what were your power settins MP RPM etc?

I was wide open throttle at 7000 ft. The best I can figure, my RPM was roughly 2450. The major squawk for this annual is a unreliable Tach, so I'm not able to say the exact RPM. I was using two different portable tach's to cross reference the R-1 which is erratic.

[ArtVandelay]

I sandbagged you. 146 kts tas, 8.2 gph, 8500' JPI shows nominal 65% power but per FF LOP formula it was 61.5%. 

Those numbers are pretty close to what I get in my J, I assume you have speed mods (cowl & windshield)?

[Bob_Belville]

Those numbers are pretty close to what I get in my J, I assume you have speed mods (cowl & windshield)?

Yes, plus Poweflow tune exhaust. 

In 1997 a previous owner, Ron Westbrook of Chickamauga GA, whose wife was born in Sep 1943, changed to tail # to 943RW modified this E by the following STCs:

1)  Oil cooler relocated by Lake Aero Style STC SA2513NM (included 2nd landing light.)

2)  Fiberglass nose cowl by AeroResources Inc  STC SA7589SW

3) Mooney 201 M20J Spinner & spinner bulkhead assys from Aero Resources Inc STC SA7589SW

4) Speed brakes by Precise Flight Inc STC SA5708NM

5)  Standby Vacuum System III by Precise Flight Inc, STC SA2168NM

6)  Mooney Bladder Tank 6 bay system by O&N Aircraft Modifications Inc STC SA2350CE

7)  Dorsal Fin Fairing by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

8)  Tail Root Fairing Horizontal by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

9)  Wheel well liner covers by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

10)  Wing Root Leading Edge Fairing by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

11)  Relocated Cleveland wheel brake assys by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

12)  Hinge cover on Aileron, Elevator, & Rudder assy by Lake Aero Styling , STC SA4443NM

13)  Aileron lower gap seals by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

14)  Flap gap seals by Lake Aero Styling, STC SA4443NM

15) One piece fiberglass belly pan fairing with skid runners by Aero Mod Inc, STC SA4080NM

Westbrook owned the plane 5 years (May '95-May 2000) and flew it a total of 58 hours. I'd love to understand that story.