Prebuy results interpretation

[druidjaidan]

So my partner and I got our prebuy results back today on an M20F.  I unfortunately missed talking to the mechanic on the phone after he sent it out and I'm anxious to start sorting the "that's what you get with an airframe from the 60's" stuff from the "yeah that's expensive/scary" stuff.  The hard part is that there isn't really any callout in the report for "this is bad".  So like a couple burned out instrument lights are right next to an AD found out of compliance.  Obviously I will talk to the mechanic and get more details, but I'm interested in what existing owners make of these items.  We're going to be going back to the seller for some squawks for sure, as well as likely a price reduction (or walk) over some of the items like a lot of leaking engine seals.  

 

Some of the things that I don't have a clue what to make of, or how concerning they are, or how expensive they are:

 

#1 drain back line fouling baffling spring has groove

 

Static Line broke in battery compartment (wouldn't this mean the static system is drawing from cabin air...)

 

Tailpipe has a lot of play @ flange bolts

 

LH nose gear door rod end loose. can't turn bolt by hand

 

Flaps take 7 pumps to put down & bleeds off fairly quickly on its own (I know this is supposed to be 4.5 pumps, but I don't know what it means for that to not be in spec)

 

Landing Gear warning switch @ fuel servo broken (does this mean the landing gear warning switch is inop?)

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

I would expect the report to stipulate for each item, if it is an Airworthy issue or not. I would also expect an Airworthy item to have an estimate of cost to fix, listed with it.  You need that information because that will tell you how much you HAVE to spend before you can fly that airplane. And that will make a huge difference on whether you really want to buy it or not.

[druidjaidan]

I would expect the report to stipulate for each item, if it is an Airworthy issue or not. I would also expect an Airworthy item to have an estimate of cost to fix, listed with it.  You need that information because that will tell you how much you HAVE to spend before you can fly that airplane. And that will make a huge difference on whether you really want to buy it or not.

 

Hmm.  Well, this is a prebuy from Don Maxwell, who from what I read is considered the defacto standard in Mooney maintenance and pre buy's and it doesn't specify that at all as far as I can tell.  Unless I'm way misinterpreting the list.

 

Our purchase agreement was really strict on the seller.  They have to fix all airworthiness issues or we can walk with our deposit and prebuy costs refunded.  That said, I don't want to have to do that.  Stuff that's in there like "fuel cap o rings cracking" are categorized as "Airworthy Airframe" right next to "Fwd thru bolt or crank shaft seal leaks" labeled simply "Airworthy Engine".  One of those is concerning enough to make me potentially walk away and the other is a trivial repair I could do myself and have an A&P sign off.

 

I'm actually slightly disappointed there isn't more detail to the severity of issues in some way.  Guess that's just something that's expected to be handled with a phone call afterwards I guess.

[KSMooniac]

None of that is major IMO, but I'm not sure what the landing gear warning switch at the fuel servo means... Maybe the F does it differently than my J.  I thought there was a switch on the throttle cable behind the instrument panel, not at the fuel servo.  Rod ends are easy to replace.  Static line is easy to replace.  Drain back line is a rubber hose and the baffle springs can cut through them...easy to correct.  Flap system probably needs to be gone through and replace seals, fluid, etc.  No expensive parts, just some labor and not bad from what I understand.  Tailpipe bolts should have some springs at the ball joint... easy to fix.

[KSMooniac]

Hmm.  Well, this is a prebuy from Don Maxwell, who from what I read is considered the defacto standard in Mooney maintenance and pre buy's and it doesn't specify that at all as far as I can tell.  Unless I'm way misinterpreting the list.

 

My Maxwell prebuy did identify airworthy items or not.  Just give him a call tomorrow and tell him you're a new buyer and unfamiliar.  I'd also just ask him straight-up if it is a good plane or not... he'll have an answer that you should heed.  /hint

[DXB]

I'm hardly expert, but all this stuff all seems fairly minor and unlikely to be a deal breaker- though couple of them may be legit airworthiness stuff (e.g. flap hydraulic system needing service) but not enough to negotiate multiple thousands of dollars off the price.  My prebuy was more like "#1 cylinder holds compression but has a clear exhaust leak and valve fails wobble test.  The jug should come off and get reconditioned."     Ok, well there's a legit $2000 that should come off the price- not much room for argument there.   Personally I would want first to question the mechanic in depth regarding his level of scrutiny of the engine and the airframe. E.g. did he listen for exhaust leaks even if compression was ok?  Did he cut the filter and also pull the screen to look for metal? Hopefully there was a decent amount of time on the oil when the inspection was done for this to mean anything.  Was the engine borescoped?  Was the interior pulled to look at the steel cage? Hopefully it's an experienced MSC scrutinizing the airframe for corrosion. This is perhaps where you'll get burned the worst. Some other details to question to get a feel for money you need to spend up front, or soon, though they may not give much negotiating power, are the age of gear biscuits and age of hoses, particularly fuel and oil hoses. I'm sure the experts on here can add much more to the list. 

[DXB]

I'm hardly expert, but all this stuff all seems fairly minor and unlikely to be a deal breaker- though couple of them may be legit airworthiness stuff (e.g. flap hydraulic system needing service) but not enough to negotiate multiple thousands of dollars off the price.  My prebuy was more like "#1 cylinder holds compression but has a clear exhaust leak and valve fails wobble test.  The jug should come off and get reconditioned."     Ok, well there's a legit $2000 that should come off the price- not much room for argument there.   Personally I would want first to question the mechanic in depth regarding his level of scrutiny of the engine and the airframe. E.g. did he listen for exhaust leaks even if compression was ok?  Did he cut the filter and also pull the screen to look for metal? Hopefully there was a decent amount of time on the oil when the inspection was done for this to mean anything.  Was the engine borescoped?  Was the interior pulled to look at the steel cage? Hopefully it's an experienced MSC scrutinizing the airframe for corrosion. This is perhaps where you'll get burned the worst. Some other details to question to get a feel for money you need to spend up front, or soon, though they may not give much negotiating power, are the age of gear biscuits and age of hoses, particularly fuel and oil hoses. I'm sure the experts on here can add much more to the list. 

Oops just noticed this is a pre-buy from a very reputable place.  The worries seem less for sure. 

[Shadrach]

All minor stuff in my mind. What ADs were not in compliance? I have seen the 4.5 reference before on the flaps. My 67 F has been thoroughly bled and is precisely 4 pumps to full deflection.

[gsxrpilot]

Yes, if it's from Don, it will list everything I mentioned. My pre-buy's have all been from Don. Every item will be marked Airworthy or Recommend. There will also be an estimate for Labor, Parts, Shipping, and Hours on all the major Airworthy items.

 

But what Scott said, just call Don and ask him to explain it all to you. And ask him if it's a good airplane to buy.

 

Will you be turning this pre-buy into an Annual? If so, make sure Don knows that.

[druidjaidan]

All minor stuff in my mind. What ADs were not in compliance? I have seen the 4.5 reference before on the flaps. My 67 F has been thoroughly bled and is precisely 4 pumps to full deflection.

 

To be honest...I only put the list of things that I didn't understand outright.  The real list is some 34 items long.  A significant number of them very very minor (some lights, a filter needing changed, no fuel selector decal, Cabin door wind lace coming loose, and so on)

 

A formidable amount of them are much more concerning:

Lots and lots of leaking engine seals

A missing exhaust stud (leaking)

Oil on vac pump drive

Brake calipers leaking

Nose gear truss has big dent from steering horn

 

But I already know what all those roughly mean.  The AD was "Fuel drain holes in ribs in both tanks plugged with sealant. There is an AD 85-24-03 that address this and is not in compliance."

[druidjaidan]

Yes, if it's from Don, it will list everything I mentioned. My pre-buy's have all been from Don. Every item will be marked Airworthy or Recommend. There will also be an estimate for Labor, Parts, Shipping, and Hours on all the major Airworthy items.

 

But what Scott said, just call Don and ask him to explain it all to you. And ask him if it's a good airplane to buy.

 

Will you be turning this pre-buy into an Annual? If so, make sure Don knows that.

 

Yeah, I'm hoping to call him tomorrow and get some more clarity.  He's been crazy busy, the plane was prescheduled to go into pre buy on Monday and it just went in this morning Thursday.  

 

We have the option to turn it into an annual, but we didn't intend to because it was just done in April.  The hope was that we'd take it to Don for a thorough pre buy and it would come out with a relatively clean bill of health and we wouldn't worry about the annual.  The results were less than optimal though.  So at this point I don't know what we're going to do.

 

Don has already addressed his opinion: it had a spar corrosion repair and has damage history.  He says 

 

Airframe has had major repairs and corrosion has been an issue in the past.  I would be reluctant to purchase this aircraft.

 

That answer is a bit frustrating though, because both of those things where known going into the prebuy. I asked him about those issues ahead of time and got reinforcing answers that these things are repairable.  Maybe something was found during the prebuy that called into question how those repairs where done, but the report sure doesn't call them out in any way.  Since the issues aren't called out it ends up feeling like his advice is "I wouldn't buy a plane that had corrosion history or a gear up" which is great advice and if he had said as much ahead of time we could have saved everyone a lot of trouble.

 

Oh well.

[mike_elliott]

To be honest...I only put the list of things that I didn't understand outright.  The real list is some 34 items long.  A significant number of them very very minor (some lights, a filter needing changed, no fuel selector decal, Cabin door wind lace coming loose, and so on)

 

A formidable amount of them are much more concerning:

Lots and lots of leaking engine seals

A missing exhaust stud (leaking)

Oil on vac pump drive

Brake calipers leaking

Nose gear truss has big dent from steering horn

 

But I already know what all those roughly mean.  The AD was "Fuel drain holes in ribs in both tanks plugged with sealant. There is an AD 85-24-03 that address this and is not in compliance."

[gsxrpilot]

Just to add to your confusion ;-)  My Mooney had been geared-up three times and repaired each time. He sent me a pre-buy report that had 38 discrepancies listed. But his recommendation to me was Buy It.  So damage history isn't always a deal killer to Don.  There must be issues with the repair or other things.

 

Just my $0.02

[druidjaidan]

Just to add to your confusion ;-)  My Mooney had been geared-up three times and repaired each time. He sent me a pre-buy report that had 38 discrepancies listed. But his recommendation to me was Buy It.  So damage history isn't always a deal killer to Don.  There must be issues with the repair or other things.

 

Just my $0.02

 

That's actually good news.  The lack of callout in the discrepancy report left me with a feeling that I was going to pay for a prebuy to get obvious advice (that being a plane that has clean history is more desirable than one that doesn't).  A counter example makes the advice seem more genuine. 

 

Either way I'll talk to him, and try to get some more details.  Then decide if we walk, cut price, or negotiate repairs.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm happy to talk about it if you like. I've got an 8 page Maxwell pre-buy in my file right here and am happy to discuss my experience with all the details. I'm free all weekend. I can't give you any advice, but I'm certainly able to relate my relatively recent experience buying a Mooney.

 

Regardless, best of luck with the whole thing. Owning a good Mooney has been one of the best experiences of my life.

[Wakeup]

I think the quote you posted says it all. When I purchased my B, I asked the mechanic if he would let his son buy it knowing he was going to fly it with his two girls. I pretty much told him he was like my Dad and I needed his opinion because I was clueless. Needless to say I bought the plane. He gave it his approval.

[DXB]

 

 

Regardless, best of luck with the whole thing. Owning a good Mooney has been one of the best experiences of my life.

Agree. Don't give up if you need to walk from this one. Still money well spent.

[mpg]

I see the plane has nose gear truss bends!  

That plane souldnt even be taxied!

Until that truss it Replaced!

Not inspected, Not serviced, REPLACED!

It should be seen as an Air Worthiness issue.

It should be fixed by the owner/seller! 

See the two recent threads here about nose gears folding up!

[druidjaidan]

I see the plane has nose gear truss bends!  

That plane souldnt even be taxied!

Until that truss it Replaced!

Not inspected, Not serviced, REPLACED!

It should be seen as an Air Worthiness issue.

It should be fixed by the owner/seller! 

See the two recent threads here about nose gears folding up!

 

I'm all over that one =)

 

Our purchase agreement has us well protected from that type of issue.  If that dent is an airworthiness issue the seller has to fix it or he refunds my prebuy.  That's a big part of what I'm trying to ascertain about the squawks.  Which are actual airworthiness issues

[N33GG]

Pick up the phone and talk to Don. Ask him specific questions. Pay attention to his answers. No need to try to guess what he means.

Don is excellent. Not a hard person to deal with. Not a hard person to understand or get a straight answer from.

[HRM]

Some of the things that I don't have a clue what to make of, or how concerning they are, or how expensive they are:

 

#1 drain back line fouling baffling spring has groove......

 

 

I would run, not walk, away from this plane.

 

The items you listed along with the AD out of compliance tell me that this plane was not well-maintained.

 

I bought The Mistress based on a telephone call to Don Maxwell. His shop had done the annuals on her for ten years. The year that the PO sold her to me, the annual was done by a local wrench and had no squawks (since it had not been flown).

 

My first and second annual were squawk-free. All squawks since then have been my doing or just expected wear.

 

My annuals are done by one of the last remaining IAs who knew Al Mooney. His comment after my first annual was: that is the driest engine I have ever seen.

 

I get a computer printout of all the ADs, SBs, SOBs, etc., etc. every year. It tracks applicability based on time and equipment in the plane and compliance is initialed by my IA.

 

Bruce Jaeger, who is a fanatic about Mooney airframe corrosion, gave me the thumbs up after he installed my Spatial Interior. He knows places where corrosion can start that even the saltiest of A&Ps have never seen.

 

Now the kicker:

1. The Mistress had one of the nastiest interiors and panels that you could find on a Mooney when I bought her.
2. She had a gorgeous paint job that was done by one of the best shops in Texas.
3. The POs money and health ran out before he could do the interior and panel.
4. He was a fanatic about maintenance. 
5. The panel, in spite of it's age, was fully IFR qualified, with ILS and DME.

I looked past the ragged to evaluate the important stuff and went with Don saying: she's a good aircraft.

 

Good luck!

[M20F]

Our purchase agreement has us well protected from that type of issue.  If that dent is an airworthiness issue the seller has to fix it or he refunds my prebuy.  That's a big part of what I'm trying to ascertain about the squawks.  Which are actual airworthiness issues

On the report from Don as others pointed out unless something has changed it will show either recommended or airworthy. Most of what he finds is generally going to be recommended. If the mags have 1000hrs on them and work as example that is going to get listed as recommended. If the tire has a bald spot that is going to be airworthy. For the most part you end up with a lot of recommended because with most things if it works at time of inspection regardless of hours or in some cases condition it is airworthy.

Mine had about $6k worth of airworthy issues and then over next two annuals we cleared up about $8k worth of stuff that was reccomended (vacuum pump, mags, injection, rigging, etc.).

What does your purchase agreement state that if the seller clears the airworthy items at his expense, are you obligated at that point?

[carusoam]

1) you took it to an expert. He is working for you.

2) he generated a long list. Like you requested.

3) you schedule a time to discuss the list. It is a long conversation for your benefit.

4) you now understand everything on the long list. Prioritize the list for your use.

You are still early in the game.

Expect to have some emotion, surprises, and other weird things...

You are not buying a new baby, she's full grown!

There is nothing like paying an expert to cover every detail. You immediately find that there is a lot of detail.

It would be best to review the details in person. Photographs are a nice way to document most things. It may take a couple more labor hours to get these final details...

Buying old machinery is a fun job. It can be very rewarding. It still is a long job.

Best regards,

-a-

[druidjaidan]

On the report from Don as others pointed out unless something has changed it will show either recommended or airworthy. Most of what he finds is generally going to be recommended. If the mags have 1000hrs on them and work as example that is going to get listed as recommended. If the tire has a bald spot that is going to be airworthy. For the most part you end up with a lot of recommended because with most things if it works at time of inspection regardless of hours or in some cases condition it is airworthy.

Mine had about $6k worth of airworthy issues and then over next two annuals we cleared up about $8k worth of stuff that was reccomended (vacuum pump, mags, injection, rigging, etc.).

What does your purchase agreement state that if the seller clears the airworthy items at his expense, are you obligated at that point?

 

 

Most of the issues on my list are labeled either "Airworthy Engine" or "Airworthy Airframe".  Only 4 out of 34 items are "Recommended Airframe" and 2 are "Owner Requested"

 

So I think that difference alone about sums it up.

[carusoam]

Owner requested...

Did you take ownership?

That would sum things up.

Best regards,

-a-