Airplane buying rant. May contain abbreviated profanity

[Andy95W]

Clarence did the last one. A hockey sock full of airworthiness issues that the seller did not believe.

I'm not familiar with that unit of measure. Is it Metric?

[mike_elliott]

I'm not familiar with that unit of measure. Is it Metric?

most certainly a Canadian measure equv. to a sh&tpot full 

[HRM]

I'm not familiar with that unit of measure. Is it Metric?

 

Unquestionably of caunuckian origin.

[petegaz40]

I know the feeling.  I have been looking since last summer and have seen a ton of junk airplanes.  I think its because its a buyers market.  The sellers overstate their plane for two reasons.  1.  They think you wont spot the problems  2. They think that you will feel the need to buy since you have already invested in the trip to look at the plane. 

 

The sad fact is that general aviation is hurting right now and the Vref value is much higher than planes are selling for or even truly worth. 

 

Keep looking and you will find a clean one.

[HRM]

The sad fact is that general aviation is hurting right now and the Vref value is much higher than planes are selling for or even truly worth. 

 

Don't get me started on a personal peeve of mine. If that data was accurate, more planes would be flying.

[chrisk]

I know the feeling.  I have been looking since last summer and have seen a ton of junk airplanes.  I think its because its a buyers market.  The sellers overstate their plane for two reasons.  1.  They think you wont spot the problems  2. They think that you will feel the need to buy since you have already invested in the trip to look at the plane. 

 

Keep looking and you will find a clean one.

 

I remember looking at one plane, remotely of course.  The guy was adamant that he would not take a penny less for the plane then he was asking.  And when asking about the plane, he was insistent on me coming to visit it before giving me to much detail (the last few years of logs, and a few pictures of the corners of the plane is all I was asking for).  It was clear where this was going to go.  He wanted me to invest, then I would feel the need to not waste money and buy his plane. --No way.  I moved on and could care less what happened to it.  There are plenty of other planes and this one wasn't a bargain at the asking price.

 

For a plane that is remote, do your homework. Review the logs.  Get the pictures.  Then pay a mechanic in the area to give it a quick assessment ($150 to $200).   If the price is good and everything else is clean, and if it still looks good after that, then go see it or send it for a proper PPI.  And I would go for the full annual, not just a PPI.

[Cruiser]

Buyer's market?

Seller's market?

 

Sounds like David is in a NO Market.  As in: there are no planes for sale in the condition and price he is willing to pay.

[davidsguerra]

Im not in the market to pay a premium price then drop 20k fixing it before i even get to the panel. Im not talking about minor squaks either im talking leaking wings and cracked cylinders. In my experiences they told me everything was solid because it just had an annual. I found out otherwise. I am miffed because the planes were misrepresented and i had to find out on my dime. Also miffed because they dont want to negotiate a new price after misrepresenting the aircraft.

[KSMooniac]

I shudder at the thought of the frustration you're going through as a knowledgeable buyer.  I was fortunate to buy the second plane I looked at it (and it was local to me), and the first one was more tire-kicking anyway.  A one-day trip to Maxwell's for a pre-buy cinched my deal as a rookie buyer.

 

If I were on the hunt again today, I would follow the advice above about reaching out to the bigger MSC's and Mooney brokers and put out feelers about what you're looking for.  They can often push a customer that is on the fence about selling if they know there is a good buyer ready to go, and filter out the chaff before you spend any time or money.  

 

You can also reach out to members here to bird-dog for you if you have a candidate that is too far away to easily check yourself.  Many of us would be happy to at least put eyes on a plane and tell quickly if it has shiny paint, non-leaky tanks, etc. before you proceed further.

Best of luck and keep your hopes up.  

[ryoder]

This is why I buy new cars. I wanted a nice used 96 TransAm convertible just as a fun second car. I called the guy and told,him how I like my cars. I told him I didn't want to waste my day driving to see a bad car. I rented a car for the purpose of turning it in locally near the seller. The car was a mess. He asked me to take it off his hands. Totally misrepresented and I was pissed. I'll probably never buy another used car.

My mooney had some issues but it was only 20k so no biggie that I had to shell out 2k on a full tank reseal to make it right.

[Cruiser]

Im not in the market to pay a premium price then drop 20k fixing it before i even get to the panel. Im not talking about minor squaks either im talking leaking wings and cracked cylinders. In my experiences they told me everything was solid because it just had an annual. I found out otherwise. I am miffed because the planes were misrepresented and i had to find out on my dime. Also miffed because they dont want to negotiate a new price after misrepresenting the aircraft.

David, I don't know what you consider "premium" or the particular planes you are looking at. My point was there seems to be a void between what you want and what you are being offered.

Misrepresenting is an awful word. I too would be pi$$ed if the seller knew of defects that were purposely being withheld to $crew over the buyer. Unethical. Are you actually saying this is the case or were the sellers just ignorant to the real condition of their airplanes? I  find the general GA population a level BELOW the knowledge and professionalism of the MooneySpace members.

 

As for price, if a seller truly didn't know of defects and has a selling price in mind, the sudden knowledge of these problems really doesn't effect their selling price even if they have to pay $$ they would then expect to recover that in a high price. Logical? NO, but they do it.

[HRM]

I think:

 

What we’ve got here is failure to communicate—Strother Martin as the Captain to Paul Newman as Luke in the eponymous movie: Cool Hand Luke.

 

First, you set the price for the plane based on everything is perfect, save 'wear and tear'.

 

Then the plane is checked over, and I do not mean an annual (Parker comes to mind, he does great annuals).

 

In fact, the aircraft should have an annual prior to the PPI.

 

The PPI reveals the differential between "perfect" and what it is.

 

The buyer and seller then negotiate based on how much the buyer wants the aircraft and how badly the seller wants to be rid of it.

 

What am I missing? Oh yeah, honesty and integrity, the factors that should never be compromised in a deal.

[Guest]

I'm confused, why would the airplane require an annual inspection prior to the PPI?. If a plane went through a number of potential sales, the owner could be doing several annuals before a sale finally happens.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

I would be far more concerned about a pencil-whipped Annual inspection (that the owner paid cheap) than a PPI that a potential owner paid dearly for.

So, as Clarence said, why an Annual before a PPI?

[HRM]

I would be far more concerned about a pencil-whipped Annual inspection (that the owner paid cheap) than a PPI that a potential owner paid dearly for.

So, as Clarence said, why an Annual before a PPI?

 

My point was, in saying that the plane should have an annual before the PPI, is that the PPI should NOT BE AN ANNUAL.

 

The annual should be a good one, preferably from an MSC, but at a minimum from a Mooney A&P; i.e., an A&P with extensive experience (and no fear, distrust or disgust) with Mooneys.

 

The annual declares airworthiness, the PPI establishes value.

 

As Mike Elliot pointed out, a new set of eyes is probably best for the PPI.

[Hank]

Harley, that's why many buyers opt to turn the PPI into an annual. That way the buyer controls who does tha annual, and it's guaranteed to not be a Parker special.

[HRM]

Harley, that's why many buyers opt to turn the PPI into an annual. That way the buyer controls who does tha annual, and it's guaranteed to not be a Parker special.

 

Hank, that may be a bad move and here is why:

 

A PPI is always cheaper than an annual. If it isn't, rethink your PPI.

 

Requiring an aircraft with (and I would demand recent) annual saves that expense.

 

Part of a buyer's due diligence, unless they want to wind up here whining about how they got screwed, is to know the level of quality of the annuals performed over the years along with the thorough maintenance history of the airplane.

 

We could discuss the quality of airworthiness as determined from an annual, but the underlying assumption is that the plane is safe to fly. What that does not cover, as an example, is an insidious corrosion that is happening in spite of an infrequently checked AD. Last year my IA told me that I needed to be thinking about shock disks, this year he gave me another bye. I think the disks are right at the 'OK' side of replacement spec. Would this be covered by an annual? Possibly not.

 

You might counter that if the annual was coupled to the PPI then it would be, the PPI part would tell the buyer that he was going to face a moderately high repair soon. I just think the PPI is distracted by a simultaneous annual. Whoever does the PPI should know how to evaluate and predict things like gear disks. Again, the point of the PPI is to value the plane, not determine if it is safe to fly.

[Jim Peace]

Is there no honesty anymore?

NO....

 

I put a C172 in for a PPI that had so many airworthy items broken the plane had to be grounded and the owner, an IA who personally maintained it had to pay the shop to get the items fixed so it could be flown out.

 

trust no one........

 

What has been true for me is that it takes about 1/3 the value of an airplane to fix the last owners incompetence.  Whoever buys my plane from me is going to get an awesome deal.  I am not a cheap bastard and lucky and thankful enough to have the disposable income to make things safe, nice and dialed in.  That is the only way you should be allowed to be an owner.  

 

I laugh so hard at owners who to this day will not install a 406 ELT in their plane.  WTF?  Can someone explain that one?  How long did it take to find that Beech in the pac north west last week?

 

These are the same sellers who will demand top dollar for their plane that must come with gold bars in the baggage compartment.  Meanwhile it is a bucket of rust.....

[Jim Peace]

By the way if a plane is flown regulary things will break.  If a plane is well taken care of the things that break will be fixed and logged accordingly in a timely mannor.  If you see  that there is no mx performed between annuals and the logs show no record of little things or big things addressed during the year then run the F away.....or be willing to spend about 1/3 to maybe 1/2 the value of the airplane to fix stuff......

 

I cannot tell you how many times I have seen log books with up to 4 or more annuals of no mx being performed except the annual inspections that only say that an annual was performed return to service. And no mention of anything else.  run away from those.......and never use those mx "technicians" to do work on your plane.

[jkhirsch]

There's a certain economic interplay here...if you want a rocket and there are only so many available, regardless of condition and owner can set his price.

 

There's also a liquidity discord, how quickly does an owner want his money, versus how quickly do you want a plane.

 

Lying is an entirely different issue of which I will not defend.

I have adopted Bernanke's philosophy: become so transparent that people don't know what the hell to think.

[MyNameIsNobody]

NO....

 

I put a C172 in for a PPI that had so many airworthy items broken the plane had to be grounded and the owner, an IA who personally maintained it had to pay the shop to get the items fixed so it could be flown out.

 

trust no one........

 

What has been true for me is that it takes about 1/3 the value of an airplane to fix the last owners incompetence.  Whoever buys my plane from me is going to get an awesome deal.  I am not a cheap bastard and lucky and thankful enough to have the disposable income to make things safe, nice and dialed in.  That is the only way you should be allowed to be an owner.  

 

I laugh so hard at owners who to this day will not install a 406 ELT in their plane.  WTF?  Can someone explain that one?  How long did it take to find that Beech in the pac north west last week?

 

These are the same sellers who will demand top dollar for their plane that must come with gold bars in the baggage compartment.  Meanwhile it is a bucket of rust.....

Here's WTF Jim. Don't want or need 406ELT...unless you want to install it for free. Same with AofA. Free? Yup. Want/Need? Nope. Nothing to do with cheap. To compare this with maintenance is so off base as to be easily tagged...OUT.

[HRM]

Here's WTF Jim. Don't want or need 406ELT...unless you want to install it for free. Same with AofA. Free? Yup. Want/Need? Nope. Nothing to do with cheap. To compare this with maintenance is so off base as to be easily tagged...OUT.

 

Sort of ditto here.

 

I have an ARTEX ResQLink+™ PLB and I like to think that my training (Eagle Scout, VMI, Army Officer and University Professor of 30+ years) will afford me enough cool-head time to activate it before the crash 

 

My SHARC still works and will guide them in to me if necessary--I always fly with FF so they'll pretty much know where I am.

 

When it is time to replace batteries again, I'll probably go with a 406 since prices have dropped.

[Jim Peace]

Here's WTF Jim. Don't want or need 406ELT...unless you want to install it for free. Same with AofA. Free? Yup. Want/Need? Nope. Nothing to do with cheap. 

I guess you don't fly with friends or family.....

 

If you would be willing to take it for free then it means you must see some value in it.......

 

You can't compare it to AoA.  AoA is not needed...nice to have but if you do the needle ball airspeed as trained then you are fine.  I fly jets with and without it and it does not matter much.   If it did you would see them on every Boeing and to date I have not seen one.  I do have two 406 ELT's on my Boeing.  One permanent and one portable.  

 

The 406 is for when you are not doing your pilot stuff anymore and you have CAP spending hours and hours if not days looking for you, when it could be taken care of in minutes.  It is a great help for your first responders to get you or your family member and bring you to a hospital within an hour vs days.....possibly bleeding out on the forest floor with broken bones and being a bears dinner.......

 

I want to make my rescuers job as easy as I can and it does not cost a ton of money to do that..........They may be flying in a single engine plane themselves near dark over terrain that they rather not fly over.  But they will do it.....so lets help them out.

 

The PLB's are great to have in addition, I am shopping them now,  but in the heat of the battle you could forget to turn it on before you become unconscious,,,plus some pilots may not do the regular mx on them and when they go to turn them on the 12 year old battery designed for just a few years may not work.  That is if they can find it in their flight bag that is in the back seat or in the trunk of their car.

[HRM]

I guess you don't fly with friends or family.....

 

 

Hard to believe you played that card.

[Jim Peace]

Hard to believe you played that card.

Well these are the people that put their trust in us.  Most of them are not pilots themselves.  They put a lot of faith in us.  They probably think that if they went down they would be picked up/rescued immediately instead of coming out of the woods 2 days later and being picked up as a hitch hiker.......

 

A lot of these 406 ELT's for our planes are drop in replacements.  They may not be as much money as you think.......

 

I know it sounds like I have stock in these 406 companies.  I don't.  It just makes sense that for so little money you can make everyones life easier.