Badmoonraising Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I returned to flying after many years absent. Last year I flew over 50 hours going from my home in Kelowna, British Columbia to Prince Georg British Columbia where I have an office. I do this at least once a month. I managed to get current again with the purchase of a Cessna 150. It was a great little plane but certainly not enough airplane to make the trek on an on-going basis. Nonetheless it did serve me well be it helped me gain confidence and built some time. I have just sold my little C150 and now contemplating a replacement aircraft. Unfortunately I miss the sale of a 1970 M20C that went for a great price. I am now looking at a 1964 M20C. It requires tank sealing, the prop to be re-certified and an annual. My question is simple; am I considering an the right model/year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) Are you considering the right plane for your mission? All M20Cs are good. Some are better than others. Much of the difference comes from who owned it last and how much they loved the machine... You already bought the C150 to find out that it doesn't quite do what you want. A B is good. A C might be better, a J might even be better than that. A K is like Superman when it comes to hopping over mountains in a single bound. Are you instrument rated? How much of a challenge is it if you have to scrub a flight? What altitudes do you fly at in BC? How many people do you carry? Are any of them customers or employees? I had a C for a decade until the kids grew to full scale. Best regards, -a- Edited May 16, 2015 by carusoam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I really like my 1964 M20C. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I really like my 1964 M20C. +1. Depends on your mission but with that said there really aren't any bad models only neglected ones. Our 64 has served us well and we have done lots of mountain flights without any problems. Welcome to the Mooney bin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 The prop and leaky tanks are potential big ticket items. Strip and reseal or bladders can run 7k+. A patch can be done cheaper with hot or miss results. Unless it's reflected in the price and the plane is what you want, I'd keep looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I'd keep looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Without budget hard to comment but given you are looking at C's guessing the vintage era. If you never fly with somebody in the back seat go for an E if you ever want to carry people in the back go for the F. Whichever I could find in the best condition/radios that is TN would ultimately decide it for me. Nothing against C's and earlier but the $/benefits ratio of an F/E is far greater so unless I found the most awesome C ever, just wouldn't consider one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 C's are capable planes. An E is just a C with 20 more hp and fuel injection. F's have more backseat legroom, and the same engine as an E. This generally makes E's faster, with better climb. There were more C's built, and they were built for more years (62-78); electric gear became available from the factory in 68). Our C has taken my wife and I all over the eastern half of the country, from Yellowstone to Niagara to the Outer Banks to Miami. I also take three passengers on short trips, the backseaters get fidgety after an hour when there are two back there. The key is condition, not model. Search above for other threads about buying Vintage Mooneys. Good luck, and enjoy the search! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 As others have posted on similar threads would be good to have more info as to passengers and loads. As far as avoiding the C if it's just 2 with an occasional 3rd a C is a great machine plus never a problem doing hot starts which for some injected owners can be quite perplexing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 my first plane was a 64 E and I like the pre 65 windows and I like the manual gear over electric. Answer the questions above and the solution will present itself. After that buy the best plane (mechanically and structurally) as you can afford with as many things, gadgets, radios as you want in it. It will be cheaper to buy them already installed rather than putting them in later. There will be compromises in what you get but look at mechanics and structure first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drapo Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 If I was flying routinely from Kelowna to Prince George, given the mountains, I'd look at an E or F with the 20 more HP and fuel injection. For the rest, it all depends on your budget and how much "surprises" you can absorb... My opinion is that it's always better to buy a good condition bird, where repairs and upgrades are done, than to buy a project or an airplane that is in need of major repairs. Bought my Super 21 five years ago, it was in superb shape, but I still managed to invest almost the buying price in upgrades, repairs and mods. But what I have now is a super reliable airplane with modern systems, that takes me where I want and when I want. And once my IR gets completed (sometime after I get familiar with my IFD540), I'll even increase that dispatch reliability given every flight I cancelled because of weather. Take your time, don't just buy any airplane and have it inspected before you buy. Finding the right airplane is also a very enjoyable experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman1200 Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 What's ur budget? Can u get any decent mooney for $40k? 70k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I really like my 1964 M20C. Couldn't have said it better myself! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Nothing against C's and earlier but the $/benefits ratio of an F/E is far greater so unless I found the most awesome C ever, just wouldn't consider one. I started out looking for an E. I wanted the horsepower and the short body. The short body can carry passengers in the back seat, I've ridden there myself. But it's not that comfortable. But in my case, it's only occasionally, and they're never paying to ride. So I didn't want to pay the fuel to carry around the extra foot room in the back seat. After all, I own the plane and always sit up front :-) But I found that for the same price, I could buy MUCH more useful equipment in a C than I could in an E. I just don't think the 20 HP makes as much difference as my 530W, HSI, Stec30, gap seals, windshield, cowl, wing tips, etc, etc, etc. So I went with the C. And the bonus is it always starts easy, hot or cold. I'd love to have an Ovation and would even settle for a K. But for the money, it's hard to beat the C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Heck, just cut to the chase and get an acclaim type s! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Heck, just cut to the chase and get an acclaim type s! That would be great! But for the money, one could have a Vintage fleet--a manual C for nostalgia, a J for longer trips with passengers, and a K/M when you want turbo power. The rest of the money would pay for years of hangars, GPS data and fuel. It's all in how you want to spend your money, along with how much you have to spend. Me, my electric C is sufficient, but I'm developing biplane lust . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 my electric C is sufficient, but I'm developing biplane lust . . . What Hank said! I keep looking at little Starduster too's or my namesake Skybolts. I think one would make a nice hanger-mate for my manual C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanti Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Bad Moon: A nice 1960's C could give you a lot of enjoyment while you blow by all the local 172s and Cherokees. However, as with almost all 1960s vintage airplanes, you need to go into it knowing that there is a pretty hard ceiling as to how high for resale purposes the market will value a pre-70's Mooney and if you put a lot of money in upgrades into it, the value of the plane will go up only so high. If you're the kind of guy who puts a lot of money into fancy upgrades, it could make more economic sense to start with a J or later plane. Also, If your heart is set on a Mooney you would do well to line up some expert assistance to help you find a plane and to perform a very thorough pre-buy. You should know that many of the smoking hot deals on the Internet are planes that have been sitting for a long time, with one or more signincant maintainance challenges, that may no longer be great deals once someone has made the investments necessary to refurbish them. The other gotcha to be aware of looking at 60's planes is that many are owned by frugal codgers who have been getting annuals from a buddy so as to avoid performing necessary maintenance - who are now selling hoping to dump the responsibility for a decade or two of upkeep on an uninformed buyer. A logbook full of annuals that replace nothing more than the oil in the sump can be a tipoff. IMO your target airplane should be a regularly flown Mooney, with a half-time engine, decent avionics, and a relatively well-off owner who fixed stuff when it wore out. You won't pay much of a premium, and you can hopefully end up with turn-key transportation instead of a project. Good luck and keep us informed! Tim 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 What Hank said! I keep looking at little Starduster too's or my namesake Skybolts. I think one would make a nice hanger-mate for my manual C. It didn't get bad until I found this: http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/index.html They have a quick build class, almost ready to cover . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 If it's just you solo 90% of the time, why not get something really fun and efficient like a Mustang II or an RV4? I like all mooney airframes. However, I prefer fuel injection. I also prefer the F because of its versatility. It is a few knots slower than an E, but if I fuel mine like an E, I can put 185lbs in each seat and have the room to do it. I think that makes for a larger market at resale time. All that being said, for your mission, it sounds like any fast efficient single would work. I would be looking for something entertaining to fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 IMO your target airplane should be a regularly flown Mooney, with a half-time engine, decent avionics, and a relatively well-off owner who fixed stuff when it wore out. You won't pay much of a premium, and you can hopefully end up with turn-key transportation instead of a project. Tim's advice is solid. And the above statement describes the purchase of my C exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badmoonraising Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I would like to thank all whom responded here. Gee, what great input. I mean it. Most of the replies are well thought out. It's very much appreciated. The 1964 M20C I'm looking at has been hangered. It's clean with less than 300 hours on the engine. It is a probate sale. I have established a price of $32K. But I know it needs the prop to be re-certified. The prop has low time on it but in Canada it has to be done every ten years. The tanks also need to be resealed and it requires an annual. So I expect this airplane to end up costing around $40K by the time I'm ready to fly it. This is IF there are no big surprises! So here's the thing - do I past up on this one and wait for the E or F model? There is a 1976 F model close by but it's in the 70K price range. Is it work another 30K? It is true, 90% of the time I will be solo. The C model will do the task for me but I don't want to end up with a machine I just can't sell. If that were the case the C model would be a very expensive machine. But if I spend the money for an F and can sell if for what I paid for it. Then it's a better deal. Am I missing anything? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Dave, I would say that 40 won't do it if the starting point is 32. 2500 for the prop, 2500 for the annual, 10,000 plus for the tanks. Are you buying it without PPI? If so look up a thread "just end learned my C is junk". Vintage Mooney's are known to have corrosion issues in both the wing structure and the tubular structure. My advise is to buy best in class, unless you're a gambler. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanti Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Dave Are we talking Canadian or US dollars? The C sounds like a project. The seller is attempting to divest the economic risk of making repairs, not to mention the time & inconvenience, in exchange for a bit of a discount. For me, I would not see this as a smoking deal. Without knowing more about the F, in US dollars $70k is close to what a base model J goes for. If it was a late model F with all Lopresti mods and a low time engine and new paint it could be worth $70, but you need to be aware that most Mooney shoppers with $70-85k in their pockets are looking for J's not F's. Hope that didn't offend anybody Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 What you are missing... The C, E and F are great Mooneys... A good C will sell as well as a good F. Select the plane that is best for you. Plan on keeping it a long time. It is an expensive process to buy something that you may need to sell in a short time... I started with a C. Then got hit financially by a stuck exhaust valve. My meager war chest could handle that. Picking up a larger expense than that would have ended my ownership prematurely... The F is a more capable plane. But it's price will make it more challenging to sell to some people. Select the plane that meets your needs. There are plenty of planes in the market, no waiting required...? Or is this related to the number of Mooneys in Canada? PPI is the best tool to protect your wallet. My thoughts, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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