triple8s Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 One HAS to wonder, at least i wonder would it have flown with all that weight? Most of us know they dont run on water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 One HAS to wonder, at least i wonder would it have flown with all that weight? Most of us know they dont run on water. There was a long runway, the plane would have flown okay as long as he didn't need more than 1-200 fpm climb. Stall speed would be higher, sink rate would have made landing feel more like a PA-28R-180. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Unless, of course, he was also aft of the rear CG envelope, what with one of Marauder's gals in the baggage compartment and all. She probably topped out at 230. Well short of what Marauder finds attractive. He likes to store his ipad, extra headsets and stratus between their fat rolls. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Unless, of course, he was also aft of the rear CG envelope, what with one of Marauder's gals in the baggage compartment and all. I dunno about that. It looked like two big guys in the front. There's not much leg room in the back of a C. 5'2 and 160 lbs looks about like 6' at 230lbs. I'm not sure of the useful load of a C, but they said they only took 30 gallons of gas out. Later model J's got a 160lb bump in max gross and ferry pilots routinely fly at 30% over max gross. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I dunno about that. It looked like two big guys in the front. There's not much leg room in the back of a C. 5'2 and 160 lbs looks about like 6' at 230lbs. I'm not sure of the useful load of a C, but they said they only took 30 gallons of gas out. Later model J's got a 160lb bump in max gross and ferry pilots routinely fly at 30% over max gross. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I knew that there was some safety built into the gross takeoff weight, but I didn't realize it was 30%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Do the math for me. How are you coming up with 30%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 No one is endorsing flying over gross or out of rear cg limits. The questions was whether the M20C would have flown if the engine had not hiccuped. The answer is a pretty definite yes. Now if the question is more like was it smart... if you did it 100 times how many times would Murphy bite you in the butt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I'm not sure of the useful load of a C, but they said they only took 30 gallons of gas out. Later model J's got a 160lb bump in max gross and ferry pilots routinely fly at 30% over max gross. Did anything change on the J or was it just a paperwork change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Did anything change on the J or was it just a paperwork change? There was some fuselage tubbing change, IIRC. Anyways, fly a J at 2900lb on a warm day and tell me how it fells. You start getting close to 15lb/hp on take off. Not fun at all. Even less fun out West. When I had my Arrow, I religiously flown it 200lb to 300lb under gross on hot days. With the Bravo, my home airport and cooler weather, everyone weights 170lb ;-) But when I depart Denver in August I still want to be under gross for real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Anybody that flies with a human being in the baggage compartment...You are DEAD to me. Somethings are just wrong. Period. I can think of some others in the news, but I will just leave it there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 My point, exactly. With plenty of runway and no obstructions, being a couple hundred pounds over gross probably wouldn't get him. But being aft of the rear CG limit is much less forgiving. All things considered, I'd rather be aft than forward CG in a case like this. I think the plane would have flown if the engine made full power and the right technique was used. I don't know what happened. What I do know is that the accident chain was a long one with many obvious and breakable links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooney20 Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I'm going to guess the airplane was probably 200-300 pounds over gross. Doable, but pretty doggy performance. The real problem I see is the hoss in the baggage compartment. That likely put the airplane at least a couple inches or more out of aft c.g. limit. It would have made pitch control exceptionally twitchy. It's a miracle the airplane didn't crash out of control when the engine lost power. I can't wait the read the factual report when it's out in six months or so. I'll bet it eventually makes at least one magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I'm going to guess the airplane was probably 200-300 pounds over gross. Doable, but pretty doggy performance. The real problem I see is the hoss in the baggage compartment. That likely put the airplane at least a couple inches or more out of aft c.g. limit. It would have made pitch control exceptionally twitchy. It's a miracle the airplane didn't crash out of control when the engine lost power. I can't wait the read the factual report when it's out in six months or so. I'll bet it eventually makes at least one magazine. I think the two fellows up front more than made up for the girl in the baggage compartment ;-) I wonder if they were flying to Dennys. Feeling very superior this morning. Walked to work all week long. Going to get less fat (lower expectations)... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I recall that as a new pilot I flew a PA28-140 with 2 very large passengers (plus me) from Milan to Nashville TN. I might have been (barely) below gross and inside CG limits but I was surprised how different (light) the controls felt compared to what I was used to flying alone. I recall being very careful to maintain flying speed and to keep turns shallow. I was too green to know how close to the edge of the envelop I was. I suppose most of us have discovered how different a low powered plane can feel when heavy. Or light. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 Or at high altitude. My naturally aspirated F at 17,000 felt squirrelly at 120 IAS Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I think the two fellows up front more than made up for the girl in the baggage compartment ;-) I wonder if they were flying to Dennys. Feeling very superior this morning. Walked to work all week long. Going to get less fat (lower expectations)... Are you seeing the same pics that I am? The Pilot was big (I guessing 18-19' neck), I'm betting between 240 and 260lbs. The right seater looked like he was about 200lbs. However, I'd bet there was as much weight in the rear seats. The pax in the left rear seat looked bigger than the pilot (maybe >300lbs) and the pax in the right rear seat looked like an easy 180-200lbs. Giving the baggage compartment the benefit of the doubt as a "light weight" at 165lbs. puts as at a conservative 1115lbs. of flesh and bones plus 180lbs of fuel. Let's call that 1300lbs. I'd bet most C models weigh in at around 1600lbs or more. I'd guess this machine was between 300 and 400lbs over gross. While the weight was a big deal, It "should" have been able to fly just fine. They were likely right around MGTW for a newer J and I am sure many of those have taken off at gross high and hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I don't get all this talk of "Would it fly?" I did fly. There wouldn't have been this crash had it not flown. The only question involving weight in my mind is, how big is the "pilot's" ego that would allow him to talk others into this idiot trip? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 What are the chances that a pilot that flies over gross with a passenger in the baggage compartment does a thorough pre-flight to include sumping the tanks and the main strainer....? Hmmmmmm....I wonder. Not 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 What are the chances that a pilot that flies over gross with a passenger in the baggage compartment does a thorough pre-flight to include sumping the tanks and the main strainer....? Hmmmmmm....I wonder. Not That's exactly it - those that misbehave/do very stupid things, tend to misbehave in many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 Since we have digressed to fat jokes, a few years ago a co-worker asked if I could take him up in my Mooney. He was, well, to be nice, a big fat guy. I asked him at the airport how much he weighed. He went on to tell me that he had a talking scale at home and every time he got on it, it would repeat over and over again "one at a time please". Hoping he was joking, I told him he really needed to let me know how much he weighed. He went on to say that every scale he bought would either do a loud buzzing sound as the dial departed it's shaft or that the metal would compress as he got on it wedging the dial between the compressed mechanism. Not to discourage him, I said lets see how comfortable you are in the plane. As we were walking towards my Mooney, I could hear my poor Mooney start to mumble "no, no, not me!" Just before I got on the wing, I explained to him how not to step on the flap and to stay on the "black part". I then proceeded to get in my plane. The first sensation I had when he got on the wing was this feeling as if the main spar was bending. The second sensation came a second later as a watched a jet of blue avgas shoot from my right wing vent. As he started to enter the plane, I realized that not only was he was blocking out light, but my breathing became difficult as his fat wedge was now firmly planted in the opening. Fortunately, I was able to open the vent window before he got in and started to overcome this suffocating feeling I was now getting. With the co-pilot seat all the way back and me pushing the yoke forward hard as if I had a runaway trim, he managed to wedge himself in. I was instantly surprised and amazed that I no longer could see any part of the seat he was on. But I did indeed hear the groans of the seat as it was coming apart. So there I sat, breathing through the side vent window, timing my breathing to coincide with his out of fear of cracking a rib by being off cycle and realizing that I indeed had invited Jabba the Hutt to come fly with me. Fortunately for me, old Jabba realized it just wasn't going to happen. It might have been the yoke pressing firmly into his fat fold, but I think the real reason was that he realized that about a third of him was still outside of the plane. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Princess Leia in Jabba's bondage outit would be a much better flying partner...Me thinks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Maurader, that was entertaining...now tell us about his exit out of the airplane in full detail. Did you have to help him out in any way? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I don't get all this talk of "Would it fly?" I did fly. There wouldn't have been this crash had it not flown. The only question involving weight in my mind is, how big is the "pilot's" ego that would allow him to talk others into this idiot trip? When people say "would it fly?", what they're really asking is would it continue to fly normally after climbing out of ground effect. The NTSB database is full of aircraft accidents that resulted from aircraft that were able to lift off and little else. Maybe a weak climb on the edge of stall before either stalling or settling back twards earth and ending up in the weeds/trees shortly thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I recall that as a new pilot I flew a PA28-140 with 2 very large passengers (plus me) from Milan to Nashville TN. I might have been (barely) below gross and inside CG limits but I was surprised how different (light) the controls felt compared to what I was used to flying alone. I recall being very careful to maintain flying speed and to keep turns shallow. I was too green to know how close to the edge of the envelop I was. I suppose most of us have discovered how different a low powered plane can feel when heavy. Or light. I think a little fear/respect is a good thing especially when you think you're near the envelope edge. Complacency can kill people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I recall that as a new pilot I flew a PA28-140 with 2 very large passengers (plus me) from Milan to Nashville TN. I might have been (barely) below gross and inside CG limits but I was surprised how different (light) the controls felt compared to what I was used to flying alone. I recall being very careful to maintain flying speed and to keep turns shallow. I was too green to know how close to the edge of the envelop I was. I suppose most of us have discovered how different a low powered plane can feel when heavy. Or light. I have read (but never flown myself) that this is how some airplanes like the cherokee 6 behave when fully legally loaded. That the feel of it is so different with 6 on board rather than what the pilot may be used to as a peppy climber with 2 on board, that sometimes that change of behavior alone causes them make mistakes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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