Stupid stuff ; landing , starting?

[MHemperly]

Here's how I land my E every time

Pattern work: (and this works the same once in the pattern from enroute for me)

Take off full power fuel pump on. If I'm full of fuel and have a passenger I'll use T/O flaps. If Fuel is down and I'm light no T/O flaps.

Gear up flaps up at appropriate time

500ft check 25"MP 2500rpm.

Climb to pattern altitude throttle back to 17"MP and fly the pattern at 120mph (gear extend speed)

Abeam the numbers pre landing check "B-GUMPS" and slow to 100mph

Tuning base throttle back as nessesary to slow to 90mph and drop 15 degrees flaps "about three full pumps" and I dont use anymore then that EVER for landing. I've found it easier to get the nose up in the flare.

Turning base slow to 80mph and once over the numbers I'm pulling power out and sight down the runway and hold the flare as long as possible. The E and most mooneys float. Do not force it down you will bounce or potentially wheel barrel and prop strike. When I'm wheels on the ground the yoke is damn near in my chest haha!

Hope this helps happy and safe flying

[Shadrach]

Mooneys really don't have to float.  If the pilot maintains an appropriate speed for the weight and configuration the airplane will happily land full stall, nose high with very little runway behind it.

[Bob_Belville]

Mooneys really don't have to float.  If the pilot maintains an appropriate speed for the weight and configuration the airplane will happily land full stall, nose high with very little runway behind it.

Agreed. It ain't rocket science, float is the result of flaring with excess speed. But if there's plenty of runway and no serious cross wind and you arrive at the numbers with extra speed just hold it off. With the throttle closed it will eventually be ready to land. And a single bounce is not a mandate to go around just don't panic and drop the nose. The video of our arrival @ SNF 2 years ago is a case in point. We were asked to make a tight turn from downwind all the way around and to land mid field. No big deal but with no base of final leg to get stabilized I arrived at the runway with a little extra speed. If you pay close attention you'll note that @ 13:15 we touched down and bounced, I just held the attitude and let it settle back on the runway about 5 sec. later with another mini bounce, probably still somewhat faster than ideal. I wish I had a nickle for every time I've done something similar at the end of a 3-4 hour flight in 2500+ hours flying M20Es.    

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+belville+sun+n+fun&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[carl]

I made a connection here . When i flew with my instructor , there were two of us and full fuel( heavier). 

I now know i've up my speed and I am flying solo and with about 26-20 gallons of fuel ( lighter).

 

 I have a 67' E model so I will try using 85 MPH downwind, 75 MPH on final and 65 MPH when the field is made , and slower to touch down.

I'll try 2 and a 1/2 pumps flaps.

Thanks to everyone

 

carl

[Bob_Belville]

Well... your original post had you at 85 mph and full flaps now you're talking about 65 and partial flaps. I'd suggest you try to cross the fence @ 65-70 mph and full flaps. When you chop power in that config there won't be much float left in that great wing. 

 

I always land with full flaps. I try to cross the fence @ 65 kts (75 mph) which is a little fast, my personal GOK factor. (If I am going into a 2500' strip I'd take that down closer to 1.2 x stall.)

[ArtVandelay]

I made a connection here . When i flew with my instructor , there were two of us and full fuel( heavier).

I now know i've up my speed and I am flying solo and with about 26-20 gallons of fuel ( lighter).

I have a 67' E model so I will try using 85 MPH downwind, 75 MPH on final and 65 MPH when the field is made , and slower to touch down.

I'll try 2 and a 1/2 pumps flaps.

Thanks to everyone

carl

You stall speed is what, 58mph? If the wind is a little gusty and your at 65 (assuming that's accurate), that doesn't give you much margin of error. Personally I'd like to be 1.2Vso over the numbers, that's 70mph in you plane, better to float a little than drop it in, IMHO

[Shadrach]

You stall speed is what, 58mph? If the wind is a little gusty and your at 65 (assuming that's accurate), that doesn't give you much margin of error. Personally I'd like to be 1.2Vso over the numbers, that's 70mph in you plane, better to float a little than drop it in, IMHO

 

How can you know his stall speed?  If he's a light weight (155lbs) with half tanks 65mph is about 1.2 Vso.  

 

Or do you just use the numbers for gross and call it good enough?

[MyNameIsNobody]

I made a connection here . When i flew with my instructor , there were two of us and full fuel( heavier). 

I now know i've up my speed and I am flying solo and with about 26-20 gallons of fuel ( lighter).

 

 I have a 67' E model so I will try using 85 MPH downwind, 75 MPH on final and 65 MPH when the field is made , and slower to touch down.

I'll try 2 and a 1/2 pumps flaps.

Thanks to everyone

 

carl

No thanks to me. Your resolution is NOT how I fly. Fly safe. All discussion is good. Sometimes the lessons "learned"/outcomes...not so much.

[Shadrach]

I made a connection here . When i flew with my instructor , there were two of us and full fuel( heavier). 

I now know i've up my speed and I am flying solo and with about 26-20 gallons of fuel ( lighter).

 

 I have a 67' E model so I will try using 85 MPH downwind, 75 MPH on final and 65 MPH when the field is made , and slower to touch down.

I'll try 2 and a 1/2 pumps flaps.

Thanks to everyone

 

carl

 

 

Carl, 

 

The lesson here is have a rough idea of what works for each configuration.  The difference between half flap and full flaps is mostly drag and sight picture but it will stall slightly faster.  You will notice that forward visibility improves with full flaps.  Experimenting is fine, but know your numbers and go from there.  If it doesn't feel right, best to do it with a another pilot/instructor with a lot of Mooney experience.  

 

Walk before you run. 1.3 Vso is fine until you build some confidence and time in type.  

[carl]

I have a 5000 runway

 

I'll keep the full flaps  for now  75 MPH across the fence

 

I'll do a bunch of slow flight air work.

 

And then Ill try other configuration.

 

I want to touch down and not feel it. Smooth.

 

Carl

[ArtVandelay]

How can you know his stall speed? If he's a light weight (155lbs) with half tanks 65mph is about 1.2 Vso.

Or do you just use the numbers for gross and call it good enough?

Didn't he have an instructor on board? I think gross is going be close enough., I did add the ? Because I don't have his POH, and pulled that off the internet.

[DXB]

I just finished 10 hrs transition into a C model with a Mooney instructor, and I have 10 hrs solo subsequently, so the plane is still new to me.  Being spot on 80mph at full flaps just before round-out always gave me good results during training. Since then I've played with the envelope around the 80mph POH number a bit more and had some bad landings.  At least in my plane, the 70-75mph range creates very minimal float, and I'm scared of anything slower.   It seems fine keep it above 75mph, as landing distance seems no issue in the 75-80 range. 85mph gave me a substantial but manageable float.  I did one at 90, when I probably should have gone around. I couldn't hold it off accurately for long enough, had a single big bounce, recovered ok by adding some power, keeping the nose up, and waiting it out.  I suspect 80mph carries the best all around compromise between reasonable landing distance and a safety margin for gusts.  Doubt I'll ever be using a very short field, so probably no reason to approach slower than 75-80mph.   Is there ever a time someone would consider approaching faster than 80mph intentionally?

[BigTex]

There's a drill my instructor likes to do which is basically come in over the numbers and at about 2-3 feet from the ground, fly the length of the runway holding it off until you're out of runway.  It's pretty amazing how much better you get an controlling your plane after doing this a few times.  It's also a lot of fun!

[carl]

Im scared of anything slower 70 ---DXB

That may be my real issue . Below 85 and i am really uncomfortable .

I watched a bad video mooney impossible turn . Crash .

Bob hoover started aerobatics cause he was uncomfortable just flying so Who knows

[Conrad]

If you're really uncomfortable, find a spare 1K and get a CYA100 to tell you angle of attack. Short of that, it seems like the best option would be to get familiar with the rule of thumb equations for stall speed during straight flight. If you don't know your stall speed then it would be hard to keep a margin over it. Plus you have a built in sanity check: if it keeps on floating on down the runway, you had plenty of margin over stall!

[ryoder]

I fly by the POH which says 90mph on base, full flaps and 80mph trimmed out on final. There is enough buffer above the 57mph stall to cover you in most light gusty conditions at 80. My runway is long enough that is rather be at 80 than 75 on final just in case. I trim during the flare which I do in two phases. The first phase is to reduce power slowly and pitch up a bit getting me to 75 or so and then prior to touch down I do the real slow flare. Of course I am not excellent at landings yet but this is how I do it. I call three pumps full flaps in my C due to the fact that it can stick if pumped too far and I don't think four pumps makes a huge difference.

[DrBill]

One thing is with a good headwind on final. You'll have to add some power or don't slow down so much. My last landing was with a stiff headwind and I touched down rigth on the numbers which is pretty short for me.

BILL

[carl]

Two people.and full fuel . My E stalls at.57 mph . Gearnand flaps.

Just like the book states.

I guess the only thing that changes as I get closer to the ground is my perception of dying quickly. So i go faster.

I really do have a better idea on what and how to practice. And this psychoanalysis is priceless.

[atn_pilot]

The ironic thing is that flying too fast because you're scared of flying "slow" is going to make it more likely that you're going to have an accident or incident. Airplanes are made to be flown by the numbers. All of this weird "technique" is why so many GA pilots get themselves into trouble.

[ArtVandelay]

I just finished . Is there ever a time someone would consider approaching faster than 80mph intentionally?

Winds gusting 10 knots or more.

[DXB]

IMG_0483.MOV

 

This is an example of the float that >80 mph gives me (I think this one was closer to 85?).  I guess I can live with it for strong gusts, but otherwise too much work.  BTW, no need to critique my sloppy overcorrection of drift for the R crosswind here - will start another thread on it if I don't get better... 

[atn_pilot]

Even with strong gusty winds, much more than 80 mph probably isn't a good idea. My M20C POH shows stall speed at max gross fully configured to be 57 mph. Doing some stalls in the airplane, that number seems accurate. So 1.3vso (Vref) would be 74 mph. There's really never a need, even in extremely gusty conditions, to have more than a 10 knot (11.5 mph) additive to calculated Vref. So even at absolute max gross, which you're very rarely landing at, with extremely gusty winds, you wouldn't want to be crossing the threshold at faster than 85 mph. You've got tons of stall margin at thtat speed, and you're going to float considerably.

[Shadrach]

Im scared of anything slower 70 ---DXB

That may be my real issue . Below 85 and i am really uncomfortable .

I watched a bad video mooney impossible turn . Crash .

Bob hoover started aerobatics cause he was uncomfortable just flying so Who knows

I know that video. It was security footage of a departure stall/spin. It was awful. We should all fear a low altitude stall. Respect the airplane and keep the AOA reasonable and you'll be fine!  

[Shadrach]

IMG_0483.MOV

 

This is an example of the float that >80 mph gives me (I think this one was closer to 85?).  I guess I can live with it for strong gusts, but otherwise too much work.  BTW, no need to critique my sloppy overcorrection of drift for the R crosswind here - will start another thread on it if I don't get better... 

 

Here's a thread with a video I made this past Sunday.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/15079-clearview-2w2-go-around-and-landing/#entry206870

[Hank]

Let's see if I can make this work. This is a video my wife shot with her point-and-shoot camera. I roll wings level on final at 85 mph and slow to 75; notice that I had to add a shot of power to hold 700 msl [field elevation 567] to clear the trees, then straight to idle.

Landing is made on the third stripe, with the stall horn sounding. The field is 3001' x 75'; notice the trees at the other end. I don't remember the wind being very noticeable that day, but there is often a left crosswind component. Also, this was shot several years ago, the trees are taller now. That's the Ohio River on the left, then West-by-God, Virginny.

Here goes:

(Thanks, Ross!)

If this doesn't work, paste the above into your browser and maybe I'll learn how to do this later. Seems like I did it once last year . . .

If that doesn't work, go to vimeo and search for "mooney landing KHTW", it's the only one. My plane was based there for a long time [since at least the 90's], and a buddy had an F for a few years. Now he's changed to an F33 and I've moved away, so the field is Mooneyless.