WAAS update for 2005-6,-7 Mooneys

[Danb]

Having been in contact with tech. Support at Mooney re. Mooney G X models without the Garmin autopilot. I was notified that during the 1st qtr. 2015 Mooney had plans for the Waas and Adsb for those of us with the S-tec 55x autopilots. He was not committal on action etc. or what was going to occur but for us to stay tuned in regard to our planes which fit in that ugly hole...now let's hope for an affordable solution...

[KSMooniac]

Hopefully you can upgrade for less than the cost of a vintage Mooney + a 430W...

[Danb]

Let's hope....it seems that a lot of us are putting pressure on the company to come up with a solution, they called it a project for the 1st quarter of 2015...

[Txbyker]

Good news in that there is some news.  If you go to Garmin's website, check out the GDL88 and check compatible devices, it says "future support is planned for the G1000".  I read somewhere that is targeted for 1Q15.  I wonder if that is the solution.

 

Russ

[KSMooniac]

That still wouldn't give you the full benefits of WAAS navigation/approaches and especially GPSS.

[VetRepp]

I've been one of those that have asked them about this a couple times this last 6 mo.

It would be nice for an affordable, compatible and integrated solution giving us WAAS.

But I suspect the solution will be to upgrade the GTX330 to the ES version (A relatively simple fix @$1500) and STC the GDL88 (w/ internal WAAS).

We still won't have WAAS approaches but we will be ADS-B compliant. This will still be a chunk of $$ to comply, bcs WAAS antennas will be needed and so it won't be a drop in solution.

But I'm still hoping for more without having to take a 2nd mortgage.

[Danb]

Actually Paul from Mooney I believe is working on a resolution for us to get Waas, they need to either do an Stc or go through the process of getting the Stec55x certified along with the Waas units, speaking to a Garmin engineer this is not that expensive (going the Waas conversion) the cost involved would be the certification of our stec with the Waas of a Stc were available the cost would be reasonable...but we're not that lucky...my conversations were not in the direction of adsb but Waas approachs..stay tuned

[Robert C.]

That is great news. Thanks for your persistence in following-up. Will start saving now

[Jeff_S]

Awesome to hear...thanks for the update!

[Jeff_S]

I exchanged messages with Paul Keener at Mooney last week on this issue.  He informed me that they still don't have the official project spun up yet, but are looking at getting going in the 1st Quarter of 2015. He suggested I check back in by the end of Q1 to get the status.  We all need to just keep hounding them so they don't lose track of it, with everything else they've got going on.

[Piloto]

Looks to me that the easiest, quickest path to WAAS is to upgrade your G1000 to the same configuration as that on the Acclaim. Not cheap but already approved.

 

José

[Jeff_S]

Jose, it's not even clear that this is an approved upgrade path, although presumably it would be. But this route would require swapping out all new MFD device, GPS units, antennae, auto-pilot and auto-pilot servos.  It's a $70K operation based on latest estimates.  Upgrading the existing equipment should be simply swapping out the GPS units, antennae, and making some software changes. After all, the S-TEC 55X is certified with other WAAS receivers already so the fault isn't in the autopilot mechanism. 

 

I can wait a few months to save tens of thousands of dollars!

[Marauder]

Where is Peter Garmin when these discussions are going on?

[VetRepp]

I've had similar conversations with Mooney and Garmin over the last year. I'm waiting for Mooney's solution, before I decide.

Garmin has always said it's not my problem - talk to Mooney  -  because Mooney has the type certificate (?) on the G1000 installation in their aircraft. (While at the same time they greedily try to charge you >$500 for a simple $10 SD card)

I suspect the solution will likely be a GDL 88 w/ built in WAAS, and upgrade the transponder to GTX330-ES. This would satisfy the ADS-B req'm, for in and out and will interface with the MFD; but those G1000 aircraft that were pre- WAAS - will still not have WAAS approach capability.  Still hoping

[Piloto]

This upgrade can only be done by Garmin. Mooney has no resources/knowledge of how to configure the software/hardware. Mooney just install the equipment according to Garmin installation manual and diagrams. Mooney is the G1000 Garmin customer so is up to Mooney to arrange, negotiate and pay for the WAAS upgrade and then pass that cost to the plane owner together with the equipment cost. What may be the hang up here is the number of planes involved is too small and the cost is too high. Unlike generic avionics GNS 430/530 GTN 650/750 the G1000 is customized to a particular plane model. This limits the flexibility for changes by the plane owner. You can swap your non WAAS G530 in your Mooney for a G530W from a Cessna but you cannot do that with the G1000.

 

José    

[Jeff_S]

Jose, I think you're wrong on this one, because the Mooney factory has told me explicitly who is responsible, and it is them.  Garmin supplies the equipment, true, but it is up to Mooney to certify any changes to the installation.  So this one sits squarely in Mooney's camp. But from all indications I have received, they understand the situation and there is a big enough base of planes in this configuration that they are motivated (fingers crossed) to address it.

 

If the solution is as simple as a GDL-88 and new transponder, that would not be ideal, but would be workable. As I've noted elsewhere, even the current non-WAAS setup, if equipped with the SVT upgrade, is a pretty darn good approach capability.  Keep the green Flight Path Marker on the end of the runway and you've got a great approximation of a glide path.

[1964-M20E]

I feel for you who are in this situation.   What should have been an advanced glass cockpit with cost effective and easy upgrades appears to be a locked black box with no options.  While I like the idea of a fully integrated glass panel I still feel a modular approach is better especially in this situation.

 

Good luck guys.  I hope Mooney and Garmin don’t take you to the cleaners.  I’d seriously consider an alternate (Aspen, Avidyne) route if it comes down to total replacement of the G1000 to send both Garmin and Mooney a message especially if it is close to even money.

[Seth]

It stinks but you could also consider selling your aircraft and moving up to another Mooney for the price delta.  Those in this position however already have very new birds.

 

-Seth

[kmyfm20s]

Couldn't you simply add a GTN 650 in addition to the G1000? I had a quick conversation with my avionics installer they felt it was possible but they didn't do any research on the issue. I know panel space limited but it is possible.

[Jeff_S]

Panel space aside, just adding a GTN 650 doesn't make much sense I don't think. If what you really need is the WAAS position source for ADS-B, then the GDL-88 is a more elegant and obvious solution. The G1000 already has the interface elements to take external traffic sources, presumably including that of the GDL-88, so you would get the full benefits of ADS-B and still have a totally integrated solution. The only thing you'd really be missing is the WAAS approaches of LPV and LNAV/VNAV minimums. But this reporter has noted, the Synthetic Vision capabilities of even this non-WAAS system are pretty sweet and cover all the needs of the average IFR flyer.

 

I have to say that I am a total convert to the benefits of the G1000. The more I learn and use it the more I love it, so any solution I deploy would have to factor that in.

[Piloto]

Jeff

 

Next time you contact Mooney ask for a target date for the WAAS upgrade. WAAS has been out for over seven years with multiple WAAS products (GTN 650/750, IFD 540, KSN 770) and upgrades (G430W/530W). You would think the Mooney G1000 upgrade would had been done by this time.

 

There are other benefits to WAAS besides LPV approaches. One of them is taxiway positioning. The accuracy provided by WAAS during taxing at night is impressive. Another is the GPS integrity and accuracy check provided by the WAAS satellites. A non WAAS navigator may give an accurate position today but maybe not tomorrow due to a solar flare or simple satellite geometry. WAAS overcomes this problem by providing timing corrections for each satellite in view.  

 

José 

[carusoam]

SkyRadar includes WAAS GPS positioning as a part of their less than 1AMU package...

http://www.skyradar.net

WAAS supplies some interesting details like T/O distance and ground track plotting within feet where it counts...

I hope Garmin and Mooney can integrate a solution for you guys...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeff_S]

Geez Jose, I'm not saying that WAAS isn't great. I know the benefits, as I had them in my J. One of the ones you left out is that technically with a non-WAAS system, I have to use an airport with ground based approach as a legal alternate to an IFR flight plan, and I'm supposed to check my VOR receivers every month for accuracy.  (Would be curious to see how many folks actually do THIS!)

 

And if you've read my posts you see that Mooney HAS given a target date of Q2 next year for this. Now, that's a target date, and we all know that can vary, but they do acknowledge the situation. I feel confident that enough people will pressure them to get this done.  I'm confident that as all these solutions evolve there will be something better than the $70K swap-out to a GFC700 system.  (Of course, if they decided to make that a $30K update I'd be all over it in a heartbeat...I've heard that the GFC700 is an awesome autopilot.)

[LANCECASPER]

At a Mooney forum at Oshkosh Tom Bowen at Mooney mentioned that there will be a greatly reduced WAAS upgrade available this fall for early G1000 airplanes. Those planes are still waiting for STEC, but he said he was optimistic for a solution this fall.

Today Garmin announced ADS-B for G1000.

http://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear/instrumentaccessories/ads-b-solution-now-compatible-garmins-g1000?cmpid=enews072815&spPodID=030&spMailingID=23147620&spUserID=NjcwMTkxNDQ2ODIS1&spJobID=602812208&spReportId=NjAyODEyMjA4S0

[Robert C.]

That would be great! Last I heard they hadn't started the test flight program yet (promised for Q2) so I hope they can deliver on that.

Does "reduced" refer to cost, or capabilities?

Robert